Competitions/Worlds Bids

Date: Tue May 16 9:26 AM, 2006

RE: Competitions/Worlds Bids

Date: Tue May 16 9:57 AM, 2006

I think you need to read the other posts to get the answer to your question. There are PLENTY of differences in competition companies. You want differences in scoring? Believe me, you'll get it. Every judge is different. But let's keep the basic rules the same, please!

Date: Tue May 16 10:13 AM, 2006

Well, I can only think of one reason why people might want to keep the scoring different between competitions, and I'm not sayin it's a good reason. I guess if you have teams that are weak in particular areas (although I don't know how you would know this early in the season when you're picking which comps to go to), but if you know you'll have weaknesses but you want your teams to go somewhere where they will at least have a chance, I guess that's a reason. Like I said, I didn't say it was a good one.

Jo

Date: Thu May 18 12:10 AM, 2006

Just curious. Those of you that are commenting on how certain styles allow teams to win at certain competitions. How many of you have actually judged a competiton before? And if you have, have you ever felt like the wrong team won because you were held back by the scoresheet?

I'm just curious. Since you all seem to have it figured out. Everyone in the cheerleading biz must want you to judge for them.

Date: Thu May 18 6:28 AM, 2006

You don't need to be a judge to see the flaws in the system. You only need to see the wide differences in rules between competitions to know that our sport is unique in that you can choose which competition won't dock you for your falling stunts and lack of difficulty. Don't you think that's weird? Nobody claims to have it all figured out. We're just stating the obvious.

Date: Thu May 18 7:03 AM, 2006

There is no competition in all of cheerleading where dropping a stunt doesn't hurt your score. Some use an automatic deduction system, some build the penalties into their raw scores. There is no competition where, all else being equal, a higher-difficulty routine wouldn't beat a lower-difficutly one. To say otherwise is dramatically overstating the difference between competitions. Cheer Athletics Large Coed or Gym Tyme Small Coed are going to beat nearly every team in their divisions regardless of the competition that they go to.

The differences are subtle, but they are there. It is like some ballparks favor some baseball teams because of altitude, distance to fences, etc. Or some tennis players play better relative to others on clay or grass, rather than concrete. Some golf courses favor some specific type of players. The basic sport is still the same, but subtle differences create preferences among the atheltes and their coaches.

Date: Thu May 18 7:32 AM, 2006

Sorry, have to disagree. The differences are not subtle, as has been stated in previous posts. They are blatant. You can check them out yourself by going to the various websites. Still haven't heard a reason to NOT go by the same set of rules, knowing that the judging will still vary because every judge is different. A run in every single ballpark is still worth one point.

Date: Thu May 18 8:09 AM, 2006

The reason why cheer companies want to have different score sheets is because it is a business and they want to make money. These companies are not in it for anything but the money. So, the bigger the differences in their competitions, including the scoring system, the more chances these companies have of keeping their doors open. Don't you all find it ridiculous that there are sooooo many different cheer companies? Do we really need that many? I say no.

Date: Thu May 18 10:18 AM, 2006

Yes, I think it's crazy too. There are so many competitions to choose from here in So Cal that we could go every weekend and NOT go to half of them!!!!

Date: Thu May 18 10:36 AM, 2006

A good example of two competiton companies that are completely different (but both are very well run, in my opinion), that have the same basic scoring, as someone else pointed out in a previous post ... American Championships and Athletic Championship. I know we can find other good examples as well (very similar scoring, completely different competitions). So the argument stating if everyone uses the same scoresheet we might as well get rid of all the individual competitions doesn't stand up.

If people think that the scoring differences are too subtle to warrant changes in the system, I would say if they're really that subtle, why have any differences at all?? Yes, great teams will do well with any scoring system, because they will have all bases covered. When/if our team should win at a competition, I wouldn't want anyone to say "well, yeah, that's because they don't count this and that, etc...". I want to play on the same playing field as everyone else, regardless of which competitions we choose to go to. Does that make sense?

Date: Thu May 18 11:46 AM, 2006

Complete sense

Date: Thu May 18 1:23 PM, 2006

Let's say you are a judge

You're at a competition and you see TEAM A and TEAM B. You like A better than B for whatever your reason is. Let's say A has flashy choreography and difficulty but isn't clean and the skills are sloppy. Let's say B has clean skills and hits their routine perfectly but isn't as flashy. You like A but the scoresheet looks to favor B. As a judge, wouldn't you still adjust your scores to make sure that A wins because as a judge, you believe A should win??

That's my point. It's not about the score sheet, it's about the judges. Most judges are good judges (and most crowds are biased so we'll get into that later). They can look at two routines or ten routines and decide which team should come out on top. Then they'll adjust their score sheet accordingly.

Date: Thu May 18 1:45 PM, 2006

judges dont judge after they see all the teams. they dont go back and erase scores. it has to do with the score sheet because when a team performs, thats the score the get.

Date: Thu May 18 1:49 PM, 2006

how do you know? have you been a judge? maybe judges keep a running tally and then use that to go off of, so they can make sure the best team gets the highest score.

Date: Thu May 18 1:53 PM, 2006

Yes, I think that's a very good point. But at least if you have the same scoresheet, the judge that thinks Team A should win even though the scoresheet will favor Team B will have to put points for each section, and it will be obvious which portion of the scoresheet the judge gives more value to because the points will be right there (or lack of points). If there is a space that has deductions for falls (stunts or tumbling), and a team has falls, they have to deduct points, they have no choice. If a judge thinks a team should win even though they had falls, they'll put more points in other sections, sure, but they're going to be limited to what they can get away with.

Judges will fill in the scoresheets based on their preferences, that is a fact. So why not leave it in the hands of the judges (in other words, one univeral scoresheet) instead of the competition companies? Why let the competition companies determine they will give so many points for this, so many for that, none for this, etc... ? If it really is to give them more business (in other words, if you're strong in choreography, you're almost guaranteed to do better if you choose USA, no matter WHO does the actual judging), well that doesn't seem right at all. Give them all the same scoresheet and then choose USA because you think USA puts on good competitions. See the difference? Just my take on it.

Date: Thu May 18 1:55 PM, 2006

I meant to say my post is addressing the point Still Curious made, which I thought was good.

Date: Thu May 18 4:50 PM, 2006

Still Curious wrote:

Let's say you are a judge

You're at a competition and you see TEAM A and TEAM B. You like A better than B for whatever your reason is. Let's say A has flashy choreography and difficulty but isn't clean and the skills are sloppy. Let's say B has clean skills and hits their routine perfectly but isn't as flashy. You like A but the scoresheet looks to favor B. As a judge, wouldn't you still adjust your scores to make sure that A wins because as a judge, you believe A should win??

That's my point. It's not about the score sheet, it's about the judges. Most judges are good judges (and most crowds are biased so we'll get into that later). They can look at two routines or ten routines and decide which team should come out on top. Then they'll adjust their score sheet accordingly.

And if that happens, that is out-and-out CHEATING. Scores should tally based on the performances, not based on who which judge likes better.

No wonder we have such credibility issues as a sport. Could you imagine if two teams stepped on the basketball court, played a full game where one scored more points than the other, and then the other was declared the winner because some judges decided they liked how they played better? It's ridiculous.