Question wrote:

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Will cheerforce be going to jamz?

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no we will not be going to jamz we have a competition sunday out in irvine and going to vegas tehn coming back the same day and xompeting the next day would be to hard we have very gracious parents at our gym and one of them is sponsering us to go to worlds but at cheer force we never take anything we didnt earn so we are fund raising money to pay them back

Get over it.....geez!

But - (I wish it was a bit more of a clever name)

You make a good point. Sometimes judging that subjective you cannot be sure what to expect.

I personally would like subjective judging to continue. I really do shudder at the thought of the subjectiveness being taken out completely. To me, I see routines that become boring and repetitive to watch, especially at the level 4 and under levels where you are restricted with skills. Don't get me wrong, I think double fulls are important skills, but they get boring on the cross or standing series going back.

Perhaps a system could be created where three major categories are equaled out; creativity, execution and level requirements.

What do you guys think?

Nelson

look at the Worlds scoresheet...I really like the way it breaks down each category giving a range of possible points for each type of skill and the difficulty level. It also breaks down the judging - each judge judges one of three main categories for a possible 100 points, a total of 300. Each judge also gets to assign an "overall impression" score, a possible 10 out of the 100. Deduction and penalty judging is separate. This seems to really balance level of difficulty, execution, choreography and leave room for that extra something that everyone wants to see in the the overall impression score without giving it too much weight.

Bottom line is that all companies have different score sheets. It's up to coaches to know how to max out their possible score with the kids and skills they have. The same routine may do really well at American Championships but not so well at USA. Many times the scores are weighted differently because the organization's score sheet favors different elements.

But wrote:

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Agree with you Nelson, but the problem, and probably the ONLY problem, with subjective judging is that there is no accountability for the scores, and GSSA is the competition that is mentioned most when it comes to injustice in scoring. Year after year. Gee, who will GSSA hire this year, a judge who likes blue costumes, or maybe red? Which is more appealing to which judges? Yeah, they could score on something as basic as that without anyone giving it a second thought. I like knowing where our team stands when we step off the stage, fair judging that rewards the right things (the things MOST competitions care about). Not judging that leaves so many scratching their heads when it's over. But that's just me, and I know everyone is entitled to their own favorite style of judging. I'm just having trouble understanding it.

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I have done things for GSSA and they are pretty much like everyone else. I highly doubt costume changes and uniforms account for who will win. From what I heard POWER was the winner hands down, so must we go down "the judges subjectivity" adventure AGAIN. Cheerleading will ALWAYS be subjective because its an Entertainment SHOW performance, as well as an athletic activity. The dancing, visual transitions, and just overall effect a team gives off will be subjective. I think a major thing that you need to understand is HOW are the skills demonstrated in each routine. You may throw 20 fulls and have all 5 body positions, but how is it presented. Its like a gift at christmas, you always flock to the one that has the prettiest wrapping paper and biggest bow. Cheerleading is no different, presentation is IMPORTANT.

But you can account for the "package" while still scoring the routine on it's other merits. In fact, the GSSA scoresheet APPEARS to work this way - there's a score out of 10 for jumps, a score out of 10 for partner stunts, a score out of 10 for pyramids, etc...then at the bottom there's a score out of 10 for "appeal". If my team's routine was hard BUT the judge didn't like the style, or whatever, it should be docked from the last 10 not from each section AND the appeal section. Instead of being knocked up to 10 points for "not liking our style", suddenly it turns into like 40 points. This is why American Championships scoring works so well. There's a subjective score for the routine on a whole, and then an entirely seperate section for difficulty, and the 2 are added together. It can be done - American Championships system works, and the new scoring system in gymnastics that begins this year is very similar. Maybe USASF needs to mandate a standard judging system...

cheerleader wrote:

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Scoring had to be wrong. Look at the mini level two division scores. Power scored as high as Level 4 & 5 Jr. and Senior teams. Now how is THAT possible?????

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#1: a team theoretically should be able to score a perfect score regardless of what division they're in. They can still get full marks for difficulty because there are plenty of ways to be creative and push the limits in all the levels and the divisions aren't judged against each other you wouldn't judge a Mini Level 2 team against a Sr. Level 5, you would judge them according to their level therefore they could get a perfect score in their level.

#2: It's funny how everyone complains about USA and GSSA judging, but what they don't realize is that both companies hire judges from NCA, UCA, CheerSport, etc. These are the same judges that judge everywhere. Including I know for sure that one judge that was at GSSA this weekend also has judged World's in the past. I think people just don't WANT to like these companies so they come up with excuses why they think they're doing it wrong when in reality they use the same judges as everyone else and use a similar scoring system to everyone else. Cheersport uses subjective judging I don't hear anyone complaining about them. So lets just stop bashing these small companies, if you don't like them then don't go there.

how about if you complain so much about judging you go out and find a sport where no judging is involved in the outcome. like football. or basketball. or baseball.

and dont give me this "but referees are judges too" whine. in those sports, you can stop your opponent from scoring, so you have only yourself to blame.

then, when you don't win, you can blame yourself instead of someone you've never met before.

i'm so sick of people lashing out at judges.