Play It Safe??

Date: Wed Sep 28 2:17 PM, 2005

Play It Safe??

Date: Wed Sep 28 3:06 PM, 2005

OOOO, gooood question. This should be interesting.....

Date: Wed Sep 28 4:17 PM, 2005

i definatly think its better to play it safe...i mean its reality if a stunt drops your gonna loose points...

Date: Wed Sep 28 6:05 PM, 2005

Good topic. I always heard you get a higher score if you attempt a more difficult stunt, but maybe don't stick it perfectly. Can't say I agree, that's just what I heard. Maybe someone with more knowledge in this area can clarify.

Date: Wed Sep 28 8:20 PM, 2005

Motions Sm. Senior team of 15 girls beat American Cheer's Large Senior team of 35 at America's Best last year, because Motions put a flawless, effortless looking routine on the floor, while American obviously had way more difficulty but made a few mistakes.

Pyramids Sm. Seniors made finals in Dallas against teams with standing fulls and multiple doubles, while Pyramids only executed a few fulls and no doubles.

In the 2003-04 season, Motions LARGE Senior team of only 21 went undefeated regionally all season against teams with bigger numbers and more talent, because they were flawless in execution and timing all year long.

Pyramids Coed team last year gave a couple of very advanced Coed teams a run for their money, with only 1 full and what could be considered level 3 stunting.

It definitely depends on the competition, but I do believe in general, judges prefer to see a cleanly presented routine, rather than a bunch of really hard skills attempted but not perfected.

This should ruffle a few feathers, but hey, thats what this board is for, right?

Date: Wed Sep 28 8:55 PM, 2005

I have to disagree on some points from "Well..."

*first, lets keep in mind that i mean 'difficult' by -you didnt/did stick your stunts every competition, -you didnt/did make your douible downs all the way around, or -you didnt/did touch down on any tumbling passes.

Motions Small Senior team of 15 girls were amazing. That routine was not effortless. Had it been effortless, Nelson would have upped the difficulty.

Motions Large Senior Team from the 2003-04 season was phenominal. That routine had difficulty and flawlessness.

Pyramids Coed from last year however I'll have to strongly disagree with. Don't get me wrong, I love some people from that team and I love the coach, but when you dont have the difficulty of an advanced team, you're kind of alone in the dark. Having been one of Pyramids Large Coed Competitiors last year, my team threw doubles, fulls, double downs, kick double baskets, standing tucks... Granted we were very sloppy, but, mentioned in a previous topic, someone said that you need to have the skills listed in a Level 5 division in your routine, otherwise other teams will do them and you'll get left behind.

Staying positive,
Bryan
Motions Coed

Date: Wed Sep 28 10:32 PM, 2005

Great responses, thanks. I was thinking more along the lines of a team that has the right skills for their level, but wants to go beyond that and try some new things that you don't see everyday. Yes, it's a gamble. If everyone lands their stunts, it looks awesome, could blow the others away. But... if you have falls, I just wondered if the judges would or SHOULD recognize you're trying to do something beyond the basic skills, and give you points for that. In the past we have lost to teams who have stuck to the basics, and it has been frustrating because we always feel like we could have done that too, but we like to challenge ourselves. I guess sometimes it comes down to how important it is to get first place versus knowing you went over and beyond what was needed. And of course it's awesome when you get both!

Date: Wed Sep 28 10:41 PM, 2005

I really think it depends on the division and the scoresheet. Its true a team will score higher in difficulty, which is its own area on the scoresheet, but overall impression and continuity will reflect the falls. Now if a team with GREAT difficulty and makes minimal mistakes compared to a flawless average routine, the difficult team will win. Now if a team makes numerous mistakes, in addition to not fulfilling certian requirements, the clean team will win. It's great that motions won against american, but seriously look at what american's throwing. 10 stunt groups and multiple fulls. Honestly America's best is great, but I hope american had lots of deductions for losing that comp.

Date: Wed Sep 28 10:46 PM, 2005

Cher Athletics and Maryland Twisters I believe both dropped stunts at Worlds. Second and First Place right there, I think that if you are clean, with difficulty, a few bobbles, a touch down, or a dropped stunt would be ok. However, ultimately we have to say that the team that has the most difficulty, is the cleanest, sharpest, and most solid routine out there has got to win.

-Bryan
Motions Coed

Date: Thu Sep 29 7:11 AM, 2005

It's all about the points ladies and gentlemen. If you need 20 points in difficulty and 5 in cleanliness.... then the difficulty will overrule. If you need 20 in cleanliness and 5 in difficulty, then your clean routine will rule. If it's even and the judge LOVES a clean routine, then there ya go. But if a judge wants to see innovative routines and you are clean but the same as everyone else, well then, I don't need to explain that too....

There's also a human factor worling here. If your judge had his/her own team dropping basic stuff last night and was mad all night long about it, well, your drops aren't going to go over well. Just like in life, if you're having a bad day (or practice) it spills over into other things. You are basically at the mercy of what each judge likes to see and what he/she thinks SHOULD be happening out there on the floor.

Just like we see on this board every single day. Everyone has an "opinion" or interpretation of what should or shouldn't be on the floor. The judges are human. And unless you know exactly what each judge likes and you can plan accordingly, you had just better do that routine with something new and exciting AND do it right!!!!! I personally think that difficulty should never be left out. You can't hit that amazing stunt if you're not even attempting to do it. Now of course, you can't learn it the night before and then just cross your fingers. That's just plain dumb. But if you are hitting it in practice, then there's a chance you will hit it in competition. But libs and straight baskets never won level 5 competitions. You must push the envelope.

But has everyone noticed something here????? It's always the "OMG, she hits that EVERY time in practice" stunt that falls in competition. Murphy's Law......

Date: Thu Sep 29 8:47 AM, 2005

Point taken, I don't necessarily agree with the theory, "what each individual judge" is looking for. There are teams and programs that always have what most judges are looking for. Ie. Spirit of Texas. About every spirit of texas routine, they always finish 1st at NCA, other than their jr. coed this past season. Every year they are clean, difficulty and very entertaining. There are a dozen other teams like this ,but for the most part most programs make routines that either cater to their own style or to a style of a certian company. If you make a routine that fits all the elments of the scoresheet in a universal way, then you should do pretty well, for the most part, not always.

Date: Thu Sep 29 9:50 AM, 2005

Oh you are so right. I was just trying to put the human element into the mix. When you get pulled over by a police officer, you may or may not get a ticket. His mood can factor into it (of course if it's a minor infraction). You go in front of the judge. Yes, he/she will follow the law, but his/her mood will come into factor in how much you can speak and how much he/she will actually listen.

As you can see on these boards, and especially as you can see by your response of not agreeing with me, the human factor came into play here. And that's what makes everything so interesting. If we agreed, we would have nothing to talk about. If judges all agreed, everyone would KNOW EXACTLY what to do to please them.

So even though I think you are right, I was just trying to point out that even though there are rules and regulations, there is also humans judging the competitions and so therefore, it's not black and white. When Spirit of texas steps on to the mat there is a certain "expectation" because they have a proven way of winning. But now, you send them to Nor Cal, they may not get the same type of judging system because Nor Cal does things a bit differently. Yes, they may WOW the judges and spectators and in that may even win. But depending on how one judge thinks a full should be landed, or a toe touch should be done, or a pyramid of a particular type should look, you are at the opinion of a judge. Maybe the judge doesn't like such sexy dances? Maybe a judge thinks they should do more showmanship in a part of the routine? Who knows. Everyone has their likes and dislikes.

The human factor comes into play in every single part of your day. It's inevitable.

Date: Thu Sep 29 11:17 AM, 2005

Ah yes, the subjectivity of judging, which could be an entirely new topic. While it may make things exciting, it also allows for unfairness and favoritism. Judges don't have to justify why they like one routine over another, they can simply state their feelings about a routine, give or take points, and that's it. We've seen high points from one judge, low from another, both watching the same routine. And, as far as I know, judges are not accountable for their decisions (are decisions ever reversed because of a protest)? It has gone in our favor as well, but still, the outcome of a sport shouldn't have to come down to the mood a particular judge was in, you know? But I digress...

Date: Thu Sep 29 12:25 PM, 2005

play it safe

Date: Thu Sep 29 3:19 PM, 2005

RE: Play It Safe??

Date: Thu Sep 29 3:33 PM, 2005

To "a judge" -- very well said, and very helpful! Thanks for your input!

Date: Thu Sep 29 10:10 PM, 2005

Cheer Q, I don't really think your statement is fair to cheer competitions, cheerleaders, or judges. 1st of all 99% of judges are very qualified to judge competitions, in addition coach and consult most programs. Correct me if im wrong, but most scoresheets have a comment section. Just because you don't like what they say, even though it is true, doesn't mean its right. Judging doesn't make me resent what they said, but to listen to their comments and criticisms to make me the best cheerleader I can be. You can always use more help and judges do that, and even more in some cases.

Date: Thu Sep 29 10:14 PM, 2005

I agree with judge, but yet again "style" has little to do with MOST competitions. I say most because some companies prefer certain skills in their routine more than others. I put the blame on coaches because they do NOT study the scoresheets. Don't just send your kids to a competition because the weekend, is open but really study the competition and its guidelines. Put the emphasis of your routine on what they require or don't compete there. I think people who complain about judging or placement, are really scared to admit their routines lacks something it should of had to take the 1st place trophy. Skills don't get 1st, style doesn't get 1st, dances don't get 1st, but the ENTIRE package. It takes more than being clean or being diffcult. It takes going out there and doing what you do best, but performing it the BEST at the same time.!

Date: Fri Sep 30 8:45 AM, 2005

To Cheer Fan -- like it or not, judging is subjective. That is a fact, and that is exactly what I stated. Right or wrong, we have to live with it. Also, I was just adding to the post before mine, so if you're going on the defense (why I have no idea) then read the previous posts as well.

Date: Fri Sep 30 9:09 AM, 2005

Just wanted to add that I've been on a co-ed team for four years now (this is my last) and my comments about judging have nothing to do with me not liking their criticism. As a matter of fact, the judging has been in our favor for the most part. Your "even though it's true" comment, Cheer Fan, is exactly what I'm talking about. Judges state facts, but also state opinions. Yes, you can certainly learn from them, but they can also knock you out of a competition, and if it's based on what mood they might be at the time (as one post said), that just doesn't seem fair. But this was not my original topic, so I apologize for going in another direction. It was great to read the comments from "a judge"; nice to have that kind of incite (anything helps)!