Senior Open 5

cheeeer · Veteran Member

RE: Senior Open 5

Love 2 Fly · Member

Noooo. what I agreed to was the preferential treatment bigger gyms get. whatever it may be. it is what it is. not good or bad just reality.

if I go into Nordstroms and want to try on a pair of shoes and Paris Hilton comes in. Who do you think the salespeople would want to wait on? trust me I wouldn't be offended. can you imagine the commission they would get on her purchases.
so that is the point I am trying to make. of course a competition promoter is going to make sure their "TOP" customers are happy. If they didn't they wouldn't be very good business people.

I don't think any big gym would disagree with my statement, unless they think there is something wrong with getting perks. like I said it is what it is and it is evident.

youvegotitwrong · Newbie

I'm sorry but Tracy and Love2Fly, you've got it all wrong. I have personally been on both sides of the fence. I am not a crazy cheer mom, but a crazy cheer gym owner. I have personally owned a small little gym and a "large gym" as you call it by your numbers. I can assure you that I have never received a break in pricing for a competition no matter how many kids are attending. I think the people that haven't been on the "large" side assume that there is a break in price if you are large or that you will receive preferential treatment if you have more teams (hence the mergers), but it doesn't work that way.

These Comp companies need all the gyms to return year after year not just large gyms. If you really study the results from various comps you will find that it really is like a ratio game. If I bring 4 teams, I will most likely win in at least 1 division. If I bring 8 teams, 2-3 will most likely win and so forth. I think that it is much more interesting that almost every single gym that attends a competition walks away with at least 1 title.

Large or Small we need them all to make our cheer world go 'round!

Fun2Cheer · Veteran Member

youvegotitwrong wrote:

I'm sorry but Tracy and Love2Fly, you've got it all wrong. I have personally been on both sides of the fence. I am not a crazy cheer mom, but a crazy cheer gym owner. I have personally owned a small little gym and a "large gym" as you call it by your numbers. I can assure you that I have never received a break in pricing for a competition no matter how many kids are attending. I think the people that haven't been on the "large" side assume that there is a break in price if you are large or that you will receive preferential treatment if you have more teams (hence the mergers), but it doesn't work that way.

These Comp companies need all the gyms to return year after year not just large gyms. If you really study the results from various comps you will find that it really is like a ratio game. If I bring 4 teams, I will most likely win in at least 1 division. If I bring 8 teams, 2-3 will most likely win and so forth. I think that it is much more interesting that almost every single gym that attends a competition walks away with at least 1 title.

Large or Small we need them all to make our cheer world go 'round!

If you don't ask, it won't be offered. Why give something away if there is no threat to lose business. Trust me, if a large gym owner goes in and asks for a discount or they won't attend a particular event, most (not all) event producers are going to give them a break. It's just a fact. When you buy in "bulk" you get a cheaper rate.

legendbabe08 · Veteran Member

Fun2Cheer wrote:

youvegotitwrong wrote:

I'm sorry but Tracy and Love2Fly, you've got it all wrong. I have personally been on both sides of the fence. I am not a crazy cheer mom, but a crazy cheer gym owner. I have personally owned a small little gym and a "large gym" as you call it by your numbers. I can assure you that I have never received a break in pricing for a competition no matter how many kids are attending. I think the people that haven't been on the "large" side assume that there is a break in price if you are large or that you will receive preferential treatment if you have more teams (hence the mergers), but it doesn't work that way.

These Comp companies need all the gyms to return year after year not just large gyms. If you really study the results from various comps you will find that it really is like a ratio game. If I bring 4 teams, I will most likely win in at least 1 division. If I bring 8 teams, 2-3 will most likely win and so forth. I think that it is much more interesting that almost every single gym that attends a competition walks away with at least 1 title.

Large or Small we need them all to make our cheer world go 'round!

If you don't ask, it won't be offered. Why give something away if there is no threat to lose business. Trust me, if a large gym owner goes in and asks for a discount or they won't attend a particular event, most (not all) event producers are going to give them a break. It's just a fact. When you buy in "bulk" you get a cheaper rate.

that actually makes sense, and really isnt hard to believe. i think if you ask then of course you will probably get a little discount at least cause your buying in bulk. its the same everywhere, not just the cheer world.. like at hotels, air flights, restaurants, cruises etc. but if you dont ask then they probably wont offer. and as far as large gyms recieving preferential treatment, they definitely do. everybody can deny it as much as they want, but i think i saw it the most this season. especially at spirit sports. there was supposedly no practice round, but friday night a large gym (who i wont name) was practicing inside on the competition floor behind locked doors (but you could definitely see through the little windows on the door and hear the music) and on 2 different occasions at different comps, teams from large gyms were made to go last in their division instead of 1st or 2nd where they originally were because "they had a girl injured that previous week at practice" (that was one excuse the company gave) the second occasion a different company said they didnt have to give a reason. and you can also see preferential treatment with the announcers. seeming to always announce certain teams with "nicknames." not to mention when certain teams from large gyms ALWAYS place high when everybody clearly notices that they should not be there. but i dont know, these are just a few of my experiences, and if it isnt preferential treatment and just incidents of coincidence then hey, maybe i'm wrong.

Love 2 Fly · Member

that is exactly right legand babe!

tracy · Veteran Member

youvegotitwrong wrote:

I'm sorry but Tracy and Love2Fly, you've got it all wrong. I have personally been on both sides of the fence. I am not a crazy cheer mom, but a crazy cheer gym owner. I have personally owned a small little gym and a "large gym" as you call it by your numbers. I can assure you that I have never received a break in pricing for a competition no matter how many kids are attending. I think the people that haven't been on the "large" side assume that there is a break in price if you are large or that you will receive preferential treatment if you have more teams (hence the mergers), but it doesn't work that way.

These Comp companies need all the gyms to return year after year not just large gyms. If you really study the results from various comps you will find that it really is like a ratio game. If I bring 4 teams, I will most likely win in at least 1 division. If I bring 8 teams, 2-3 will most likely win and so forth. I think that it is much more interesting that almost every single gym that attends a competition walks away with at least 1 title.

Large or Small we need them all to make our cheer world go 'round!

I wish I had it wrong. But I know too many gym owners, a crossed the United States, that are telling me otherwise. I don't debate the issue that every team is needed at every competition, however, I do not like that this industry is to satisfy the Largest gyms first, and then after the large gyms are taken care of then it's the small gyms turn for a courtesy hand shake. And literally, it is a courtesy hand shake and nothing more.

Let me ask you something, how many dinner invites have you had with event producers in your gym ownership career? Are you getting wined and dined, I can guarantee that the major cheer gyms are getting calls regularly. Again just another perk for large gym ownership.

Remember this is a nation wide problem not just in your home town. It's time we look at the bigger picture. It's only then can we see that the small gyms need to stand strong and ask for restrictions for certain divisions.

POSITIVElycheer · Senior Member

Though I do agree that larger gyms receive perks, I do not feel that it is fair. But as the saying goes who says life is fair.

It is not the gyms "fault" that they have been successful and flourished. Why should they be bashed for growing?

I am not from a large gym but one that is growing. Do I like it when I see favoritism no. But when they offer my program a discount and I can pass the savings on to our families I would not say no. If your honest with yourself you would not either biggrin

(Perks? Yes, Please).

Work hard, coach well, and hire qualified staff and your program will also grow.

There is no reason a smaller gym team can not beat a larger gym team. In the end we all work with whatever bodies and talent that we have, it is our job as coaches and gym owners to maximize whatever we have that season.

flipkidjudge · Senior Member

cheeeer wrote:

tracy wrote:

cheeeer wrote:

tracy wrote:

CaliCheerWatcher wrote:

tracy wrote:

Love this idea IF the division is used how it was intended. This is a senior prep level 5 division. It's just one more step before the actual level 5. HOWEVER, we all know good and well that teams will take advantage of this division just as they all have with every other OPEN division this season. I don't like the co-ed side of this division either.

This division needs to be:

1. ALL-GIRL only
2. Limited to small gyms only - 75 members or less
3. All girls need to have been competing on a level 4 team all last season
4. No crossovers from another level 5 team in the gym

This division will be the most heavily used division next season. GUARANTEED! And that's too back because the intention was a good one.

Woah! thats asking a little much, dont you think? I also dont see the problem with biger gyms using it. Big gyms have cheerleaders that have some level 5 skills but just not quite ready to be on that super competitive level 5 team yet also, not just small gyms. This could be a great place for them. I could see in bigger gyms dropped there current teams into this division that could be a problem, but if its just an addition for those that would have otherwhise stayed on level 4 another year but have fulls. This could be a good think.

I personally believe that my request is not too much to ask. This is the only way that a small gym could have a fighting chance in the BIG, BAD, CHEER WORLD!

It's time to start looking at the bigger picture here and there needs to be restrictions on certain categories and held to those restrictions.

You say big gyms have cheerleaders that have some level 5 skills and they need this chance all well. Then I challenge all the big gyms to incorporate these beginning level 5 cheerleaders into their normal level 5 teams. You all have been very spoiled to be able to put together teams from a mass cheerleading pool. Let's face it. It's been easy for you. It's time to put your coaching talents to work and take chances on those new level 5 cheerleaders and add them to your normal 5 teams. You might just get a small glimpse what a small gym coach is face with ever single day.

I know that my challenge to Large gyms will never come true and this division will be smashed by the Large gyms just as all the Open divisions this season. But someone needs to start standing up and fighting for what is right! It's time!

Wow! A little harsh on the big gyms don't you think? I'm not sure that every gym started out big so you have to start somewhere and pay your dues. Most of these kids didn't come in having their fulls so when the so called "big gym" incorporated a new level 5 cheerleader into their existing level 5 team, they took their chances and at the same time, the new level 5 cheerleader learned her skills and how to perform like all the others before him or her. It's crazy to me how the people on this board know what's best for the cheer world. Maybe some of you want a new job making cheerleading rules.

NOPE! I am not being harsh enough when it comes to the large gyms. Everyone needs to understand the politics of cheerleading. It's the large gyms that are pushing the agendas and the event producers are listening and catering to them left and right.

For example: There are gyms out there with large numbers, huge numbers, anywhere from 200 to 500 kids. These gyms are asked to attend competition for FREE. Yes, for FREE or at huge discounted prices. Why? Because the event producers know that they can eat the registration costs because of the Fan base that follows these large gyms. They - event producers - will make it up in admission prices, apparel sales, concessions, etc. You get the idea. this is just one example of what the event producers do for large gyms and what some large gyms are getting away with and aren't sharing with you.

In addition, it is important for the event producers to keep these gyms happy so that these gyms will return year after year. There are lots of perks being a large gym.

So when you tell me I am being to harsh it's not hard enough and it's time that we start asking for added restrictions for large gyms and make they work and pay just as much as the small gyms. In addition, it's time that Small Gyms are given what they deserve as well.

Regulations need to be enforced and if they need added employees to make it happen, then sign me up! It's time to make this sport FAIR and CLEAN!!!

-- Edited by tracy on Thursday 16th of April 2009 09:59:37 AM
Wow again. So because you say so, the competition producers are allowing the large gyms (200-500 competitors) compete for free or at a huge discounted price. So, when Cheer Power charges $100 per athlete, they're going to give up $50,000 or more depending on how many large teams are attending, in hopes they can make it up by charging their followers entrance fees. OMG, I find that hard to believe. I wouldn't know, we don't belong to a large gym. Maybe you really have the inside scoop. I hope this isn't how it's all played out because I don't want my cheeeer bubble popped. Nevertheless, remember, every cheer gym did not start out with 200-500 athletes, they work hard and work their way up. Keep a positive attitude; it's contagious

There are so many things that are dead on center in these posts, even if it does burst cheer bubbles. There are a few things that are perceptions that quite frankly most comp companies don't care if we believe it or not. In their minds they are doing the best they can and (watch this) we don't have many other viable options - which is why I shudder about a USASF/Varsity induced cheer monopoly. Then there are others which are legitimate rules issues which need to be clarified and enforced without favoritism - doesn't matter if the program is large or small, or well connected or not.

The problem I have is we rarely go to the root of the problem or to the people who can solve the issue. Some problems are directly rules related. Others are comp company related. And frankly others are just the ethics of the gyms involved. Good ethics can overcome bad policies. We attack what we can see above ground, when the real issues are often hidden from the majority of the public's view. We get so emotional about our position that reason goes right out the window. By the time we see it so much has already gone on that it would make you shake your collective heads.

Is there favoritism in our industry? No doubt. Can I always say it is the big program? In most cases probably, but perhaps it is wiser to say the better connected program. Connected via multiple layers of relationship and through dollars. Cut away team names, wins, losses and it in essence becomes either old friends helping old friends or who can bring or generate more dollars. (An old saying comes to mind from a friend in New Orleans: the reason why the big dogs stick together and you can't break in/through is because they stuck together when they were little puppies when no one wanted them) This where the lack of ethics bother me. Because this types of programs can get away with breaking the rules because no one wants to turn them in, but a smaller/less connected program will be brought to an open shame in front of everybody and their momma's cousin. Because of seeing this, there are gyms who feel like their voice will not be heard anyways so why bother, and there are gyms who are in place that can make rulings that are favorable to their programs because they are the ones that are there. The options are simple: become a part of the system and try to change it from the inside out; rally against the system from the outside so you can't be blamed for being one of them and hope they hear your voice of dissent and they make changes, or create a new system. I feel we are headed towards two distinct systems.

Do larger gyms receive perks? Quite often they do. Comp companies are often quite aggressive in getting larger named/bigger programs to commit to their events early on because as it was said no matter what break they are given they (comp company) knows they will make it up at the gate, concessions, and even other teams coming to compete against them. They may not be charged crossover fees, or the initial entry fees may be reduced based on the amount of teams that may come. They may get a free meeting room at the venue and may have a better warm up times to deal with their crossovers. Although I do not like this at all, I can see it as a business necessity. But I draw the line when it comes to messing with anything to do with the competition itself. Violate that and this is not a sport, it is a charade. It should be won and lost on the floor and not in a backroom, bedroom, or boardroom as I said last year. Best team that day wins; gym reputation or politics should have absolutely zero to do with it. We also need judges and comp companies who are accountable for their scoring.

In the same vein, I have a problem if a price reduction is given, if it is not passed on to the parents. If a comp company advertises 100.00 and your owners are able to get it to 50.00 then I feel that should be passed on to the parents somehow. if not for that event, then for the next, or a discount at the end of the year. Give that is the parent in me talking of course. Likewise the parents should be paying their bills on time and asking owners to foot their comp fees until payday - especially when they know that when payday hits, they still ain't paying. That is the former co-owner in me.

As a coach I have certainly wondered about many strange placements, not only with some of my teams, but others from around the country. Afterward when you find out who is really running the event, who is helping out, if the judges have done choreography or music for certain teams performing, who has promised to bring to return next year to the event for sure, who is dating who (sorry but it is the truth) it makes you sick of the politics at times. Yes some things are getting better. We still have a way to go.

I have not ranted on here in a long time. Time to go...lol.

-- Edited by flipkidjudge on Friday 17th of April 2009 06:42:06 AM

xpressjag · Senior Member

youvegotitwrong wrote:

I'm sorry but Tracy and Love2Fly, you've got it all wrong. I have personally been on both sides of the fence. I am not a crazy cheer mom, but a crazy cheer gym owner. I have personally owned a small little gym and a "large gym" as you call it by your numbers. I can assure you that I have never received a break in pricing for a competition no matter how many kids are attending. I think the people that haven't been on the "large" side assume that there is a break in price if you are large or that you will receive preferential treatment if you have more teams (hence the mergers), but it doesn't work that way.

These Comp companies need all the gyms to return year after year not just large gyms. If you really study the results from various comps you will find that it really is like a ratio game. If I bring 4 teams, I will most likely win in at least 1 division. If I bring 8 teams, 2-3 will most likely win and so forth. I think that it is much more interesting that almost every single gym that attends a competition walks away with at least 1 title.

Large or Small we need them all to make our cheer world go 'round!

It's business pure and simple! Why do you think people shop at Costco and Sams Club. DISCOUNTS for buying in bulk. Why do people think that cheerleading is independent of these same traits. You are bringing more athletes, parents and coaches to an event, so you will get a kickback on pricing. It is an incentive for larger gyms to attend. They are providing "more competition" at events where numbers are low.

LOL 123 · Member

Flipkidjudge, I am impressed. You said it all. Thank you. I agree with you 200%! I am tired of the favoritism that legandbabe and love 2 fly have talked about earlier. As soon as you hear the announcer use the nickname of the gym or hear of a gym owner going to dinner with the promoter, or one team being able to practice before the event on the competition floor, you just want to throw your hands up in the air.

Ethics. That is what this comes down to. Winning at any cost and making as much money as possible ( for some not all)...as long as you don't get caught. How do we spotlight these behaviors? I am tired of just ranting and raving, what can we do to stop it or at least curb it a little?

flipkidjudge · Senior Member

LOL 123 wrote:

Flipkidjudge, I am impressed. You said it all. Thank you. I agree with you 200%! I am tired of the favoritism that legandbabe and love 2 fly have talked about earlier. As soon as you hear the announcer use the nickname of the gym or hear of a gym owner going to dinner with the promoter, or one team being able to practice before the event on the competition floor, you just want to throw your hands up in the air.

Ethics. That is what this comes down to. Winning at any cost and making as much money as possible ( for some not all)...as long as you don't get caught. How do we spotlight these behaviors? I am tired of just ranting and raving, what can we do to stop it or at least curb it a little?

My thing is the rules must be solid and enforced across the board. The current model of having gyms turn in other gyms is not good policy, IMHO. It is funny to me that the professionals create rules that the ordinary person can see the loopholes 15 miles away. So it tells me they intended for the loopholes to be there so they could use them themselves (ethics) or else they are not as brilliant as I have given them credit for being. So I ask why?

Well who makes the rules? Currently for All Star it is USASF. If repeat if they were a separate stand alone entity beholden to no one, I would feel much better about going to them. The issue I have is because USASF is so closely connected with a competition company (Varsity) you wonder if they will truly enforce rules of the governing agency they created if it punishes clients of Varsity? Especially the major programs as we have alluded to. Most every competition is either Varsity run or Varsity aligned. The notable exception is Jamfest. So in effect Varsity is telling the cheerleading world how it will be and for the most part, most have not questioned it but fell in lock step. (I just tore my britches again didn't I?)

My big thing would to completely separate USASF/Varsity. Get them out of the same location/city and have them run independently of each other. No dual responsibilities or people whatsoever. Work for one or the other. No matter that Varsity loaned money to get USASF started (http://spiritpost.com/?s=Varsity+loan) - pay it off and separate it for the good of the sport. Then I feel we could get some stronger things done with the rules. They could create a board of enforcement and violations could be reported to them. The board then could hold gyms and comp companies accountable and punish violators accordingly. That would restore a lot of credibility to the sport. I would even serve on that myself, if they were separated.

The best thing to do is to get information. Learn as much as you can about what is really going on. Be gently inquisitive in order to see how things work. Know who sits on what boards, what gyms they represent, work with, do choreography for, etc. Know how the relationships play out after the meeting is over.

Then get involved. At some point you are going to have to get involved. The question is where and when. Like jumping double dutch you need to know when to jump in and time it right. In this I agree with Acedad, even though I frustrate him to no end. If you don't get involved you really are just spitting in the wind.

-- Edited by flipkidjudge on Friday 17th of April 2009 08:49:59 AM

Anonymous · Veteran Member

??

CaliCheerWatcher · GURU

RE: Senior Open 5

AirborneOwner · GURU

Airborne is considering it, I feel like its a great way to train Level 5 skills for new level 5 athletes!

cheerio · Senior Member

I think surf all stars is considering it as well as PAC all stars in Orange county.

onetrupairing · Newbie

Love 2 Fly wrote:

Totally agree with you Tracy. The bigger gyms do get preferential treatment. Anyone who disagrees with that is lying or from a big gym. That is part of the reason we are seeing so many mergers. Everyone knows you can make a bigger impact at a competition with 200+ athletes with parents, friends, etc. than with a gym with only a couple of teams. The dynamic is altogether different. And it won't matter what the senior open 5 team was meant to accomplish, it will only be another division the big gyms will dominate.

I don't think anyone is not being positive. Those of us who have been at this a little while just know what to expect. No one is hating or jealous. It is just the way it is. Don't want to pop anyones cheer bubble, but we have to be realistic.

-- Edited by Love 2 Fly on Thursday 16th of April 2009 10:36:09 AM

Already happening. Brandon, World Cup, CA Bullets, and Top Gun all have so5 teams now. Their teams have people pulling *standing* bhs whip punch fulls!

How are we supposed to compete with that? Hell it's not possible for small gyms to catch up anymore!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pA39rnvXD-4&playnext=1&videos=RedqFAjOaQM

there goes our chance at success...

Danny · Senior Member

This is a great topic.

It ALL comes down to somehow limiting crossovers. If the industry simply said you cannot crossover more that one level up or down and never allow competing on more than one team in a given level then that would solve 95% of the problem.

Lets not all hold our breath though.

Insist that your gym certify all of their athletes. Until that happens we're all spinning our wheels.

**sigh** <---- same sigh since 1986

femmefatale_i · Newbie

Now let's get real for a second.... "there is no reason why a small team can't beat a large team"... a team of 6 with a "perfectly" excuted performance againist a team of 20 with a "perfectly" excuted performance would be beaten every time... the scoring is not based evenly... a team of six cannot possible give the judges "visual" scoring demands they want, there needs to be a sm, med, and lg catagory if anyone can attempt to make this sport (and yes, I said SPORT) anywhere near savageable for the smaller gyms... besides the fact that this "sport" no longer looks like cheerleading but a combination of gymnastics and dance... It's sad to see what's happened to it in the last 10 years!

xpressjag · Senior Member

onetrupairing wrote:

Love 2 Fly wrote:

Totally agree with you Tracy. The bigger gyms do get preferential treatment. Anyone who disagrees with that is lying or from a big gym. That is part of the reason we are seeing so many mergers. Everyone knows you can make a bigger impact at a competition with 200+ athletes with parents, friends, etc. than with a gym with only a couple of teams. The dynamic is altogether different. And it won't matter what the senior open 5 team was meant to accomplish, it will only be another division the big gyms will dominate.

I don't think anyone is not being positive. Those of us who have been at this a little while just know what to expect. No one is hating or jealous. It is just the way it is. Don't want to pop anyones cheer bubble, but we have to be realistic.

-- Edited by Love 2 Fly on Thursday 16th of April 2009 10:36:09 AM

Already happening. Brandon, World Cup, CA Bullets, and Top Gun all have so5 teams now. Their teams have people pulling *standing* bhs whip punch fulls!

How are we supposed to compete with that? Hell it's not possible for small gyms to catch up anymore!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pA39rnvXD-4&playnext=1&videos=RedqFAjOaQM

there goes our chance at success...

You are toally correct! Many of the divisions such as Senior Open and divisions like it in the past were set up mainly for small gyms to progress in the all star world. Every time these divisions pop up many large gyms field teams in these levels. I am not sure why the USASF does not enstate small gym divisions. They already do it in Texas, and for good reason.