4.2??

Date: Fri Oct 3 11:57 AM, 2008

4.2??

Date: Fri Oct 3 12:48 PM, 2008

world cup infinity-formerly lady gems

and

pac-las vegas

CheerTyme Owner · Senior Member

I have been thinking of trying it. Maybe for only one competition, but I have been considering it. I don't know yet if I necessarily like this division.

Date: Sat Oct 4 10:28 AM, 2008

I guess this is the part I don't understand. So if you try it you will use your level 2 tumblers and work on level 4 stunts. The level 4 stunts I have seen in competitions, especially last year, were difficult and very impressive. Is it really that easy to decide to try them with a level 2 team this close to competitions? Keeping in mind this division is supposed to be for the level 2 teams who want to try more complicated stunts, and NOT for the level 4 team who decides to drop their tumbling down to 2. It will be interesting for sure!

CheerTyme Owner · Senior Member

I don't think this division was made for the level 2 teams, and I really hope true level 4 teams don't drop down their tumbling to win in this division. My team can throw level 4 stunts but only has level 3 tumbling. So I keep them in level 3 since tumbling has become such an important part of All Star Cheerleading. I know my kids would love to compete level 4 so they can throw bigger and better stunts but they know with only 1 layout and only 4 tucks at this time they would get killed. This is the reason I have considered entering this divison. Again I still don't know that I like this divison. Aren't us coaches supposed to produce well rounded cheerleaders? Is level 4.2 the easy way out? This division reminds me of the prep divisons, which I didn't like either, I didn't see the point. If we enter these divisions this season does that mean this division will stay??? Do we want it to stay??? Do I want to contribute to the longevity of a division I may not like or ever need to use again??? It is my goal to produce true to level well rounded cheerleaders, so do I enter this division? Or not??

Very confused!!!!

Tamara · cheergyms.com Master Poster

CheerTyme Owner wrote:
I don't think this division was made for the level 2 teams, and I really hope true level 4 teams don't drop down their tumbling to win in this division. My team can throw level 4 stunts but only has level 3 tumbling. So I keep them in level 3 since tumbling has become such an important part of All Star Cheerleading. I know my kids would love to compete level 4 so they can throw bigger and better stunts but they know with only 1 layout and only 4 tucks at this time they would get killed. This is the reason I have considered entering this divison. Again I still don't know that I like this divison. Aren't us coaches supposed to produce well rounded cheerleaders? Is level 4.2 the easy way out? This division reminds me of the prep divisons, which I didn't like either, I didn't see the point. If we enter these divisions this season does that mean this division will stay??? Do we want it to stay??? Do I want to contribute to the longevity of a division I may not like or ever need to use again??? It is my goal to produce true to level well rounded cheerleaders, so do I enter this division? Or not??

Very confused!!!!

I like your willingness to talk about this. I do think that if gyms in your situation participate in this level the USASF will say "Tada! We knew this was a good idea." and of course it will stay. However, since I've seen on other message boards very big gyms having teams in this division I think it's going to stay anyway. Boy! I don't think I helped you any. :)

-- Edited by Tamara at 11:55, 2008-10-05

cujo1103 · Newbie

In my opinion I see 4.2 as the perfect opportunity for gym owners to be aggressive and go after those cheerleaders who are ages 14 and older. Gyms across the nation are all seeing the same trends, athletes who are leaving programs because they are not getting the tumbling skills that are required to do the higher level stunts. Why should athletes be restricted in their building skills simply because they either decided to start cheering at a later age or have been cheering for years but just can't seem to get anything more than trick through to backhandspring. The world of All Star cheerleading without a doubt has become so focused on and centered on tumbling skills. From the athlete development perspective, learning tumbling skills at an older age is not easy. Parents if you don't believe me go sign yourself up for a tumbling class. So, its understandable to see why so many athletes who are able to go cheer at their high school or even junior high school where tumbling is not such a great focus they can still be satisfied with being able to do the high level stunts, baskets and pyramids.

If I'm not mistaken...Cheerleaders leaving All Stars for this very reason has been a topic on this message board before.

Cheerleading is not a unique sport because of the tumbling skills that are involved. The stand out aspect of our sport are the building skills; stunts, baskets and pyramids. I think that over the next few years we are going to see the USASF start to take the focus off the tumbling and put a bigger emphasis on what really makes our sport unique and different from the gymnastics and power tumbling. Give a bigger opportunity for those athletes who have started at an older age but are wanting to do the higher level stunts. The one thing I would like to see for 4.2 is to put an age limit to help this emphasis making it a division for the older kids 14 and above who just can't get the tumbling. Let's be honest not everyone was meant to do a full, layout, or a tuck.

Gym Owners: I would ask yourself how many athletes have left your gym over the last two years for this very reason. Use this as your opportunity to call them email them and say we have the perfect place for you back in our program. We want you back! You may be surprised that you can think of enough kids to form a completely new team.

Date: Sun Oct 5 2:30 PM, 2008

maryland twisters and cheertyme (pa) will be having one

Date: Sun Oct 5 7:08 PM, 2008

Swatt ?

flipkidjudge · Senior Member

cujo1103 wrote:

In my opinion I see 4.2 as the perfect opportunity for gym owners to be aggressive and go after those cheerleaders who are ages 14 and older. Gyms across the nation are all seeing the same trends, athletes who are leaving programs because they are not getting the tumbling skills that are required to do the higher level stunts. Why should athletes be restricted in their building skills simply because they either decided to start cheering at a later age or have been cheering for years but just can't seem to get anything more than trick through to backhandspring. The world of All Star cheerleading without a doubt has become so focused on and centered on tumbling skills. From the athlete development perspective, learning tumbling skills at an older age is not easy. Parents if you don't believe me go sign yourself up for a tumbling class. So, its understandable to see why so many athletes who are able to go cheer at their high school or even junior high school where tumbling is not such a great focus they can still be satisfied with being able to do the high level stunts, baskets and pyramids.

If I'm not mistaken...Cheerleaders leaving All Stars for this very reason has been a topic on this message board before.

Cheerleading is not a unique sport because of the tumbling skills that are involved. The stand out aspect of our sport are the building skills; stunts, baskets and pyramids. I think that over the next few years we are going to see the USASF start to take the focus off the tumbling and put a bigger emphasis on what really makes our sport unique and different from the gymnastics and power tumbling. Give a bigger opportunity for those athletes who have started at an older age but are wanting to do the higher level stunts. The one thing I would like to see for 4.2 is to put an age limit to help this emphasis making it a division for the older kids 14 and above who just can't get the tumbling. Let's be honest not everyone was meant to do a full, layout, or a tuck.

Gym Owners: I would ask yourself how many athletes have left your gym over the last two years for this very reason. Use this as your opportunity to call them email them and say we have the perfect place for you back in our program. We want you back! You may be surprised that you can think of enough kids to form a completely new team.

I have posted to what you have descrbed before in another thread on ths same subject. In our situation only this is 100 false. We get the never have cheered before, older cheerleaders. Instead complaning about the darkness we just lit a candle and found ways to advance kids at that age and mindset. In all areas.

If we have had older kids leave it was for other reasons than that could not tumble and were embarrassed to be 16/17/18 and on a Senior level 2 team.

flipkidjudge · Senior Member

Tamara wrote:

CheerTyme Owner wrote:
I don't think this division was made for the level 2 teams, and I really hope true level 4 teams don't drop down their tumbling to win in this division. My team can throw level 4 stunts but only has level 3 tumbling. So I keep them in level 3 since tumbling has become such an important part of All Star Cheerleading. I know my kids would love to compete level 4 so they can throw bigger and better stunts but they know with only 1 layout and only 4 tucks at this time they would get killed. This is the reason I have considered entering this divison. Again I still don't know that I like this divison. Aren't us coaches supposed to produce well rounded cheerleaders? Is level 4.2 the easy way out? This division reminds me of the prep divisons, which I didn't like either, I didn't see the point. If we enter these divisions this season does that mean this division will stay??? Do we want it to stay??? Do I want to contribute to the longevity of a division I may not like or ever need to use again??? It is my goal to produce true to level well rounded cheerleaders, so do I enter this division? Or not??

Very confused!!!!

I like your willingness to talk about this. I do think that if gyms in your situation participate in this level the USASF will say "Tada! We knew this was a good idea." and of course it will stay. However, since I've seen on other message boards very big gyms having teams in this division I think it's going to stay anyway. Boy! I don't think I helped you any. :)

-- Edited by Tamara at 11:55, 2008-10-05

Tamara, you are right. Of course it will be hard with a gym like Maryland Twisters entering the division that competitior gyms in Maryland have to enter the division as well, just to show they offer the same program as Twisters. Same for those around World Cup, and other major programs who have announced they are going into this division. (anybody really think they are just now putting together a new 4.2 team?) Now all you have to do is get those bigger name teams/gyms to some major events with their new 4.2 team and volia! Success! Next year gyms will rush to fill teams in that division. (think about how you prime a pump)

But the white elephant that those who are in favor of the division refuse to acknowledge is that most of the teams in this division will not be Seniors who can't tumble or who left the program to cheer at High School because they could not throw a tuck, but higher level teams/athletes who will cross down their tumbling to this division. If what is posted is true the team that will be 4.2 from WC is their Level 3 team from last year.

Amy, after debating this new division we looked at all of our options. We felt we could not after pushing our kids to develop in all areas of cheerleading to neglect one area because now their was a division created. So our choices would be to drop a Senior 4 team into the division which we already know other gyms are doing in our tri state area, drop a Senior Coed 3 team in the division, or give it as a reward maybe to our Senior Level 2 team mid year. Unless we got an immediate influx of cheerleaders due to a gym closing (which I hope does not happen) then this is not a feasible option. We also know that three of the bigger name gyms in our state have already committed to doing 4.2.

Honestly I do not know what we will do, but as a staff we are leaning towards the latter choice. But our Senior 2 is so fierce that some of us would hate to move them out of level 2 where they typically have great success year after year. if anything they could bump up to 3 and our other Senior Coed 3 could potentially bump up to 4. We could create a whole new team but it would not happen until next year. Or we could go after teams that are rumored to be dropping to avoid our Level 4 team or jumping to avoid our level 2 team. But to me of they want to run, let em run. I think ot does more harm than good to your own program to keep switcvhing levels once in season. Win or lose, stay where you are...increase skills all around and if you can move up as a team great!

-- Edited by flipkidjudge at 05:19, 2008-10-06

Date: Mon Oct 6 5:21 AM, 2008

you sure seem to know alot about what other gyms are doing and why they are doing it, and how they are running from somthing when most gyms i know havent even competed yet! Maybe just focus your thoughts on your gym!

flipkidjudge · Senior Member

Anonymous wrote:

you sure seem to know alot about what other gyms are doing and why they are doing it, and how they are running from somthing when most gyms i know havent even competed yet! Maybe just focus your thoughts on your gym!

I am only posted what they (and their kids) have posted on ther own message boads and on websites like this. If you read them you will see what gyms have posted where they are competing and why, which is what Tamara refered to. Besides when you coach you hear a whole lot of things through the coaching grapevine, a lot of them which you can't repeat until it actually happens. None of those things have I posted.

My focused thoughts on my teams, my staff, my program are from 11 am to 10:00 pm. To imply that someone is not focused on their own teams simply because they are aware of the larger cheer community around them is absurd. Not one successful business is completely ignorant as to what their competitiors are doing. The thing is they are not swayed by them. Neither am I. I learn from them, but I am not swayed about what the competitiors are doing.

-- Edited by flipkidjudge at 07:11, 2008-10-06

Date: Mon Oct 6 8:09 AM, 2008

That is one of the key elements of having a successful program.... keeping up with the industry...keeping on your toes! That is all that flipkid is doing.... doing what you say she isn't so maybe you should mind your own buisness! She's giving advice that was asked for! smile

Date: Mon Oct 6 8:42 AM, 2008

It's smart, it's keeping kids involved and it's marketing. Great idea, and another great opportunity for the athletes to compete. Our gym won't be doing it this year, but who knows in future.

Date: Mon Oct 6 3:04 PM, 2008

That remains to be seen, we'll see how it goes this season. Whether it is REALLY used as intended, I'll believe it when I see it. Until then I agree that you won't see new level 2 cheerleaders in this division, you will see level 3/level 4 cheerleaders dropping down, and the addition of yet another division, as if we didn't have enough already.

Now if they added they had to be a particular age (Seniors only, no open) and no crossovers allowed, then I think it might have a chance to do the industry some good.

Date: Wed Oct 8 7:24 PM, 2008

So who has one?

World Cup
PAC (nv)
Maryland Twisters
CheerTyme (pa)

Anyone Else?

Date: Wed Oct 8 7:41 PM, 2008

CheerTyme Owner wrote:

I don't think this division was made for the level 2 teams, and I really hope true level 4 teams don't drop down their tumbling to win in this division. My team can throw level 4 stunts but only has level 3 tumbling. So I keep them in level 3 since tumbling has become such an important part of All Star Cheerleading. I know my kids would love to compete level 4 so they can throw bigger and better stunts but they know with only 1 layout and only 4 tucks at this time they would get killed. This is the reason I have considered entering this divison. Again I still don't know that I like this divison. Aren't us coaches supposed to produce well rounded cheerleaders? Is level 4.2 the easy way out? This division reminds me of the prep divisons, which I didn't like either, I didn't see the point. If we enter these divisions this season does that mean this division will stay??? Do we want it to stay??? Do I want to contribute to the longevity of a division I may not like or ever need to use again??? It is my goal to produce true to level well rounded cheerleaders, so do I enter this division? Or not??

Very confused!!!!

so you just proved what everyone is talking about. if your team has level 3 tumbling and go into a division where level 2 tumbling is required the you yoo would be sandbagging. think about it.... now if you said my team can do level 4 stunts but only have level two tumbling then you should compete this division. if your team has level 4 stunts and level 3 tumbling then they are a true level 3 period. they are a step away from level 4, because we all know that level 3 stunting is not much more than level 4 but the tumbling is. again, not much difference in stunting, there is some of course but tumbling it what seprates level 3 from 4!
if your team competes level 4.2 that is cheating and sandbagging iin my opionion.
this division is for level 2 tumblers not level 3 and above tumblers. I personally don't like the division, but if I had a squad who needed it and I would use it as a last resort. I would not sandbag this division though. also i personally think you should progress a a true level whatever it may be. stay true to the sport to make it stronger. in my opionion cheerleaders want to be the best at being and doing their best in their true level. you can ask any cheerleader who has been ion a squad when they have a higher skill and compete at a lower level, its just not the same as wininng when you are competing at theor true level.

Date: Wed Oct 8 8:30 PM, 2008

You all could seriously hurt yourself. lol, you think about it to hard. Cheer is cheer and what happens, happens. 4.2 whatever works

CheerTyme Owner · Senior Member

Anonymous wrote:

CheerTyme Owner wrote:

I don't think this division was made for the level 2 teams, and I really hope true level 4 teams don't drop down their tumbling to win in this division. My team can throw level 4 stunts but only has level 3 tumbling. So I keep them in level 3 since tumbling has become such an important part of All Star Cheerleading. I know my kids would love to compete level 4 so they can throw bigger and better stunts but they know with only 1 layout and only 4 tucks at this time they would get killed. This is the reason I have considered entering this divison. Again I still don't know that I like this divison. Aren't us coaches supposed to produce well rounded cheerleaders? Is level 4.2 the easy way out? This division reminds me of the prep divisons, which I didn't like either, I didn't see the point. If we enter these divisions this season does that mean this division will stay??? Do we want it to stay??? Do I want to contribute to the longevity of a division I may not like or ever need to use again??? It is my goal to produce true to level well rounded cheerleaders, so do I enter this division? Or not??

Very confused!!!!

so you just proved what everyone is talking about. if your team has level 3 tumbling and go into a division where level 2 tumbling is required the you yoo would be sandbagging. think about it.... now if you said my team can do level 4 stunts but only have level two tumbling then you should compete this division. if your team has level 4 stunts and level 3 tumbling then they are a true level 3 period. they are a step away from level 4, because we all know that level 3 stunting is not much more than level 4 but the tumbling is. again, not much difference in stunting, there is some of course but tumbling it what seprates level 3 from 4!
if your team competes level 4.2 that is cheating and sandbagging iin my opionion.
this division is for level 2 tumblers not level 3 and above tumblers. I personally don't like the division, but if I had a squad who needed it and I would use it as a last resort. I would not sandbag this division though. also i personally think you should progress a a true level whatever it may be. stay true to the sport to make it stronger. in my opionion cheerleaders want to be the best at being and doing their best in their true level. you can ask any cheerleader who has been ion a squad when they have a higher skill and compete at a lower level, its just not the same as wininng when you are competing at theor true level.

Cheating!!! That is such a strong word!!! I have ONE girl on my Sr 3 who can throw layouts, which would be level 4, and we compete level 3...so I must be cheating or sandbagging now according to you. I also know of teams where some girls are throwing fulls and they are still competing level 3 or 4, so they are cheating and sandbagging also according to you. I would hope that you understand that you need more than just one skill to make you a true to level team. So if I do decide to enter this divison I would have my 4 girls who tuck at the moment not tuck. Really with only 4 tucks some people could say I am not a true to level 3 team either. Cheating is a strong word and hard to do in cheerleading. And Sandbagging to me would be if a level 4 team who had team tucks and 50% layouts entered 4.2. But to each their own, if it happens it happens...and I think we all know it will happen. You say that this division is for level 4 stunters and level 2 tumblers but you also say to progress as a true to level team....So if a team enters this division and suddenly a member progesses and learns a tuck they need to leave this divison?? No, Obviously. I think the key word here is team, when a TEAM is a true to level team then they should compete in the level they are true to and not sandbag. But 4 kids does not make a team.

I agree that we need to stay true to the sport and make it stronger, but if this is where our sport is going and we cannot stop it, then lets stay true to this sport and make it stronger.

I still am undecided on this division but I do think it fits my athletes and if we enter this division my tuck and layout kids would be just as happy winning 1st in this division as they would winning in Level 3 and I will be just as proud of them. And I will continue to grow my athletes skill levels beyond level 4.2.

Our first, second and third competition are coming here in the next 6 weeks and I have entered level 3 on all of them so far. I want to see what the level 4.2 brings before entering.

I do thank you for your input.