e-mail circulating about the 4.2 level

Date: Wed Sep 24 11:26 PM, 2008

e-mail circulating about the 4.2 level

Date: Wed Sep 24 11:50 PM, 2008

Yep, they are testing the waters!

Date: Thu Sep 25 6:50 AM, 2008

Anonymous wrote:

Read this e-mail carefully and notice not just what it says but what it does not say:

Hey all

I thought Id bring this to your attention. In our last USASF directors and committee meetings in Dallas it was expressed that the current competition levels are preventing gyms from expanding their market. Currently only 3% of all female athletes are involved in cheerleading nationally. The primary issue with expansion is that cheerleading has become too focused on tumbling skills. Studies are showing that gymnastics enrollment which is heavily skills based is flat and declining and likewise since the inception of Worlds and the increasingly higher requirements for tumbling, kids are not staying or worse, not even joining cheerleading gyms because they cannot achieve the high levels in tumbling necessary to receive recognition. Furthermore, higher fees/costs are pricing All Star out of the market for most families. It is well known that the largest gyms are typically located in the most affluent areas because the demographics support to high cost to the athletes. The industry is not targeting the larger addressable market with its current cost structure.

For a gym to be successful and competitive in the current rules they must:

1) Retain kids for a long period of time to obtain the skills that allow them to compete at the more visible levels

2) Locate in larger more expensive buildings that are often not in high traffic areas, requiring more expensive marketing

3) Pay more expensive salaries to obtain and retain tumbling coaches.

Event companies are required to host competitions is larger more expensive venues, offer costly spring floors, obtain expensive insurance, and higher skilled judges which are already in short supply.

In fact, the emphasis on tumbling is requiring a level of employee training at all levels of the industry that does not match with the economics of the cheerleading business at this time. To be successful in this climate All Star gyms in non affluent areas MUST offer other products which detract from the initial reason most coaches started their gyms. It is becoming increasing necessary to also provide jungle gyms, coffee shops, bounce houses, baby sitting services and more to keep the gym operating and afford the facilities necessary to train tumbling skills at a gymnastics level which then causes coaches to be become disenchanted with their business. Simply stated, gym owners are shutting down because they are no longer doing what they initially liked. Instead they are running daycare centers and other business that they originally had no experience with to keep the part of the business that they love alive and not getting paid or rewarded as much as they deserve for the risk and aggravation.

Therefore, the board has taken urgent action to add a new division called 4.2 at the request of many gym owners. This means that you can now develop and compete teams with level 4 stunting and level 2 tumbling skills. Collectively we urge gyms to develop these teams immediately and use them as a means to attract older athletes who want to stunt at the highest levels but who will not have sufficient time to develop their tumbling skills. The belief is that this will apply mostly to high school age students so Level 4.2 will only be available for Seniors this year. This allows athletes to perform and be recognized as higher level athletes but not be required to be in your program for 3-4 years to achieve it. It is anticipated that gym owners will be able to attract and retain a greater number of upper middle school and high school athletes as a result. We strongly recommend that you offer this team level as a upgrade and not a lesser opportunity. For more information about 4.2 go to www.usasf.net

Depending on the success and feedback at the end of the year, the USASF will look at altering this concept and adding additional divisions. Please note that it is a strong possibility that a 5.2 or similar divisor will be added to Worlds to further strengthen the importance of deemphasizing tumbling and ensure that it is perceived as an upgrade within your gyms, not a lesser option for weaker athletes.

For those of you who are very entrepreneurial what this means to you is that it may be possible to open satellite operations in local strip malls and recreational centers in the near future with limited mat area and capital investment to enable teaching of stunting and dance on flat floors. For those athletes that show the ability to tumble you can invite them to your elite facility but you will be able to operate multiple locations at a substantially lower capital and operational cost with lower prices to your customers which should build the market and interest in cheerleading. It is very possible that if this explodes you could see competitions without spring floors in the near future to address this market which will also lower competitions fees and further make it affordable to families to place their kids in cheerleading. The hope is to create a market where training requirements and facility requirements allow for the same level of proliferation as dance studios while maintaining the ability to offer elite services for those programs that can build up larger networks and afford the facilities necessary. Hopefully the number of total athletes in cheerleading will approach 5-10% through this approach.

Please feel free to email and comment on this as the year progresses. We are all very interested in building this market and increase participation. Your involvement is crucial to working collectively in building the industry. I will be glad to carry all your feedback to the meeting I attend over the year on this topic.

Best Regards
VP of Events
Jim Wargnier
Great Lakes Championships
866-FIRE-U-UP
www.greatlakesspirit.com

What an idiot. I've got an idea. Why don't you NOT get into the cheerleading competition business if you can't afford to offer a spring floor for our kids safety! Tumbling aside...the spring floor has saved MANY falls out of stunts and baskets that a mat on concrete would not have done.

If this is the route that all-star cheerleading is going to take then it will die for sure. All the gym owners might as well sell their gyms and start practicing in parks with the rec teams.

Danny · Senior Member

This is a very forward think email. I agree with everything Mr. Wargneir says.

Date: Thu Sep 25 9:14 AM, 2008

I agree with Danny. As an elite tumbling coach not everyone will attain the necessary tumbling skills to be placed on one of the stronger Level 5 teams in the country. However, most children will be able to attain a moderate level of tumbling as witnessed by the numerous level 3 and 4 teams competing today. I welcome this decision and I am also excited about the possibilities of Level 5.2.

Date: Thu Sep 25 10:04 AM, 2008

I don't think it will work in the long run since cheerleading is going to be regulated by the goverment with national guidleines that include springfloors for basket tosses, fulls and two high pyramids. I guess "big brother" Varsity thinks that these parents of dead and paralyzed cheerleaders are going to go away.

Hey, why don't we stop spending so much money on their overpriced uniforms made in China for 22 cents and trips to Florida for one of 1000 so called nationals and buy spring floors, safety equipment and tumbling coaches? Just a thought.

flipkidjudge · Senior Member

Honestly I think one of the real issues is that so many coaches, programs, parents, fans, users of message boards has made it into a if you are not a Level 5 you suck type mentality that they have created the monster they are now trying to slay. Yet they are trying to cut off the tail of the dragon instead of the head. We scream about progressions on one hand and on the other trash programs who do not have Level 5 teams performing at a "World's" level. We scream about how many standing fulls a team has when in reality they add absolutely zero to a score sheet in points but gives an impressive visual. or perhaps I should say that every score sheet that I have seen does not give extra credit for standing fulls. We have rules that can be manipulated by certain coaches but not others, or conveniently ignored by competition companies. We allow Level 5 skilled athletes to compete on Level 1 team by the rules. We challenge certain gyms for proof of athletes ages but other gyms we let slide because they are so good that it would be a shame to punish them for breaking the rules just like the other gym did. the almighty dollar is causing heads to spin around like a top and we have found quick ways to spin profit out of pain.

We create a division that says a full is rated the same as a double full. That a team with 2 fulls and 50 percent jump to tucks is equal to a team with 10 fulls, 6 double fulls and squad jump to tucks. Then complain that kids can't reach that Level so they feel they don't get enough recognition? Recognition first starts within that athlete. If they have no sense of self worth and accomplishment then no matter how far you lower the bar it will not matter. Then parents need to step back and let their children breath and learn. When I was teaching gymnastics I would tell every parent that your child may not ever become an Olympian...but they can learn and progress so much on this journey should they decide to take it that not matter where they finish up they will be the better for it. If they did that, and perhaps earned a college scholarship anywhere or a career teaching the sport I love it would be so worth it.

Then gyms need to learn how to recognize all of the athletes in their own respective programs for whatever they bring to the table and not just the super tumblers, fliers, etc. For example we have a girl who is 18 who just started cheering with us last year along with her younger sister (14) . She is exactly the type of child supporters say this rule was created for.
Probably would never be a strong 5 or even a strong 4 for that matter in Tumbling. A child that people say full length uniforms should be made for. The child most tumbling coaches do not want to spot on backbends let alone BHS. But the child loved to dance! She quickly became point dancer on our Senior Level 2 team. She became a solid base. She was encouraged to keep on tumbling. 1 year later she is throwing ROBHS x3, working ROBHS Tuck, Working Standing tucks for conditioning and on a Senior Level 2 and 3 team. Her sister who was in the same predicament as she was has gotten her ROBHSx2 solid and working standing multiples. Rather than let these children give up on themselves because they were deemed "too big" by outsiders or too late to All Star cheerleading we found a way to work with them.

So please do not tell me it can't be done because it can. It is how you approach it. Give everybody in your program kudos and respect, regardless to what skill level team they are on. And daggone it if you do not want those Seniors who can't tumble, do not have the time, patience, or inclination to progress them just as you would that 6 year old...send them to me in NC please.

Date: Thu Sep 25 10:43 AM, 2008

Flipkidjudge for president!!!! Your clarity on these topics amaze and inspire me and I'm sure alot of people! I wish you were out here in so cal!!! smile

flipkidjudge · Senior Member

Some probably want me outta NC so who knows...rofl!!!!

Date: Thu Sep 25 11:46 PM, 2008

flipkidjudge wrote:

Honestly I think one of the real issues is that so many coaches, programs, parents, fans, users of message boards has made it into a if you are not a Level 5 you suck type mentality that they have created the monster they are now trying to slay. Yet they are trying to cut off the tail of the dragon instead of the head. We scream about progressions on one hand and on the other trash programs who do not have Level 5 teams performing at a "World's" level. We scream about how many standing fulls a team has when in reality they add absolutely zero to a score sheet in points but gives an impressive visual. or perhaps I should say that every score sheet that I have seen does not give extra credit for standing fulls. We have rules that can be manipulated by certain coaches but not others, or conveniently ignored by competition companies. We allow Level 5 skilled athletes to compete on Level 1 team by the rules. We challenge certain gyms for proof of athletes ages but other gyms we let slide because they are so good that it would be a shame to punish them for breaking the rules just like the other gym did. the almighty dollar is causing heads to spin around like a top and we have found quick ways to spin profit out of pain.

We create a division that says a full is rated the same as a double full. That a team with 2 fulls and 50 percent jump to tucks is equal to a team with 10 fulls, 6 double fulls and squad jump to tucks. Then complain that kids can't reach that Level so they feel they don't get enough recognition? Recognition first starts within that athlete. If they have no sense of self worth and accomplishment then no matter how far you lower the bar it will not matter. Then parents need to step back and let their children breath and learn. When I was teaching gymnastics I would tell every parent that your child may not ever become an Olympian...but they can learn and progress so much on this journey should they decide to take it that not matter where they finish up they will be the better for it. If they did that, and perhaps earned a college scholarship anywhere or a career teaching the sport I love it would be so worth it.

Then gyms need to learn how to recognize all of the athletes in their own respective programs for whatever they bring to the table and not just the super tumblers, fliers, etc. For example we have a girl who is 18 who just started cheering with us last year along with her younger sister (14) . She is exactly the type of child supporters say this rule was created for.
Probably would never be a strong 5 or even a strong 4 for that matter in Tumbling. A child that people say full length uniforms should be made for. The child most tumbling coaches do not want to spot on backbends let alone BHS. But the child loved to dance! She quickly became point dancer on our Senior Level 2 team. She became a solid base. She was encouraged to keep on tumbling. 1 year later she is throwing ROBHS x3, working ROBHS Tuck, Working Standing tucks for conditioning and on a Senior Level 2 and 3 team. Her sister who was in the same predicament as she was has gotten her ROBHSx2 solid and working standing multiples. Rather than let these children give up on themselves because they were deemed "too big" by outsiders or too late to All Star cheerleading we found a way to work with them.

So please do not tell me it can't be done because it can. It is how you approach it. Give everybody in your program kudos and respect, regardless to what skill level team they are on. And daggone it if you do not want those Seniors who can't tumble, do not have the time, patience, or inclination to progress them just as you would that 6 year old...send them to me in NC please.

Of course your going to have points when you play devils advocate to every rule. 1st off, score sheets say MAJORITY of team throwing skills. Yes the maximum skill is a double full in level 5 but how many teams are really throwing near team double fulls, let alone team fulls. Yes some teams have reached that point or surpassed it but the majority of level 5 teams HAVE NOT. The scoring gird applies to the majority of the industry.

The level 4.2 will actually become popular because you get many kids who are older and won't get the level 5 tumbling. GET REAL, it is the truth. They can throw harder stunts so why not let them.

The rules on how to score well is out there. Its up to your coach to do their research.

flipkidjudge · Senior Member

Anonymous wrote:

flipkidjudge wrote:

Honestly I think one of the real issues is that so many coaches, programs, parents, fans, users of message boards has made it into a if you are not a Level 5 you suck type mentality that they have created the monster they are now trying to slay. Yet they are trying to cut off the tail of the dragon instead of the head. We scream about progressions on one hand and on the other trash programs who do not have Level 5 teams performing at a "World's" level. We scream about how many standing fulls a team has when in reality they add absolutely zero to a score sheet in points but gives an impressive visual. or perhaps I should say that every score sheet that I have seen does not give extra credit for standing fulls. We have rules that can be manipulated by certain coaches but not others, or conveniently ignored by competition companies. We allow Level 5 skilled athletes to compete on Level 1 team by the rules. We challenge certain gyms for proof of athletes ages but other gyms we let slide because they are so good that it would be a shame to punish them for breaking the rules just like the other gym did. the almighty dollar is causing heads to spin around like a top and we have found quick ways to spin profit out of pain.

We create a division that says a full is rated the same as a double full. That a team with 2 fulls and 50 percent jump to tucks is equal to a team with 10 fulls, 6 double fulls and squad jump to tucks. Then complain that kids can't reach that Level so they feel they don't get enough recognition? Recognition first starts within that athlete. If they have no sense of self worth and accomplishment then no matter how far you lower the bar it will not matter. Then parents need to step back and let their children breath and learn. When I was teaching gymnastics I would tell every parent that your child may not ever become an Olympian...but they can learn and progress so much on this journey should they decide to take it that not matter where they finish up they will be the better for it. If they did that, and perhaps earned a college scholarship anywhere or a career teaching the sport I love it would be so worth it.

Then gyms need to learn how to recognize all of the athletes in their own respective programs for whatever they bring to the table and not just the super tumblers, fliers, etc. For example we have a girl who is 18 who just started cheering with us last year along with her younger sister (14) . She is exactly the type of child supporters say this rule was created for.
Probably would never be a strong 5 or even a strong 4 for that matter in Tumbling. A child that people say full length uniforms should be made for. The child most tumbling coaches do not want to spot on backbends let alone BHS. But the child loved to dance! She quickly became point dancer on our Senior Level 2 team. She became a solid base. She was encouraged to keep on tumbling. 1 year later she is throwing ROBHS x3, working ROBHS Tuck, Working Standing tucks for conditioning and on a Senior Level 2 and 3 team. Her sister who was in the same predicament as she was has gotten her ROBHSx2 solid and working standing multiples. Rather than let these children give up on themselves because they were deemed "too big" by outsiders or too late to All Star cheerleading we found a way to work with them.

So please do not tell me it can't be done because it can. It is how you approach it. Give everybody in your program kudos and respect, regardless to what skill level team they are on. And daggone it if you do not want those Seniors who can't tumble, do not have the time, patience, or inclination to progress them just as you would that 6 year old...send them to me in NC please.

Of course your going to have points when you play devils advocate to every rule. 1st off, score sheets say MAJORITY of team throwing skills. Yes the maximum skill is a double full in level 5 but how many teams are really throwing near team double fulls, let alone team fulls. Yes some teams have reached that point or surpassed it but the majority of level 5 teams HAVE NOT. The scoring gird applies to the majority of the industry.

The level 4.2 will actually become popular because you get many kids who are older and won't get the level 5 tumbling. GET REAL, it is the truth. They can throw harder stunts so why not let them.

The rules on how to score well is out there. Its up to your coach to do their research.

I just speak my mind because I am too old to try to be making a name for myself and i did not read the book How to Win Friends and Influence People. (J/K..read it several times) Anonymous as I have said before I have seen this same stuff happen in gymnastics and the arguements are identical even though they are 25 years apart. I competed as a level 2 Gymnast when Level 1 was the next best thing to being Elite. I saw the system add Level 5 into the Women's Program, Create the Level III C and O division, Separate the Level IV division, then invert the whole system and make Level 1 be the beginning and level 10 the top, seen skills , flexibilty and conditionng basic requirements for progression to next Level regardless to what gym you attended or who your coach was. Creation of TOPS programs and Hot Shots programs, some of which I ran at the facilites I worked at before I started teaching tumbling to cheerleaders in a cheerleading faclity only.

I also saw the formation of another organization with fundamental differences with the main organization...by people within the same organization who felt that their concerns with policies, procedures and that of their constituents was not being taken seriously. Which is where I feel this is eventually going to end up with cheerleading. But I digress.

Frankly all I am pointing out are either flaws or loopholes within the rules. Other than that it is just my opinion (which I thought message boards were for) and you know they are like shoes..different sizes, shapes, colors and the majority of people have at least a pair. It is the rule and I will learn to live with it, regardless to whether I like it or agree or to if we decide as a staff to put a team into this division or not...just like the crossover rule. I also can not wait until our competitions start in October and to hear the complaints of all these small gym coaches about these issues. Since I also work for a competition company, I get a whole lot more credible information than just a "tumbling coach."

You point out the max vs min arguement for Level 5. I could buy that except you have the dynamic I expressed in the post you responded to. Those who do not throw the majority are percieved by those I alluded to earlier as not being true level 5 teams. This causes much consternation within the industry whether on message boards or in the coaches rooms at competitions. Just read this board alone and recall all the programs slammed for going level 5 without standing fulls, standing doubles, and max running doubles or speciality passes to double. On how programs are crucified for not going Level 4 because they can't max out level 5 to the same degree as CA. WorldCup, CEA, SOT, Top Gun , etc in September, let alone in April at Worlds.

Coaches should study the scoring grid for all levels and max out as much as possible, which we do for every competition. That is excellent advice. Yet even within that you can find some discrepancies between what the scoring grid says, what you put on the floor, and how the judges see the very same thing.

Like you I believe 4.2 will become popular, but not because of the stated reasons for the division. Crossovers will dominate this division when all is said and done. (Now perhaps if the USASF actually put teeth into leveling, it would be different) So the people they are trying to help (the seniors who just can not tumble but can do amazing stunts) are going to get pushed to the bottom again in this new effort to get recognition.

Date: Fri Sep 26 7:53 AM, 2008

Time to get rid of, or at least LIMIT crossovers. Seriously, it would eliminate some of these issues and our sport would be better for it. Then new rules and divisions (like 4.2) would make more sense and would truly benefit those intended.

Date: Fri Sep 26 8:08 AM, 2008

Making 4.2 and the soon to be 5.2 a no cross-over division would stop gyms from stacking down just to win a trophy. We shouldn't however, eliminate cross-overs all together we just need to limit them. You never know if someone will get sick, roll an ankle or quit.

Date: Fri Sep 26 8:36 AM, 2008

Yes, a limit is needed. A team of 20 doesn't need more than 5 crossovers should injuries/illness occur, for example. So only 25% allowed would solve so many problems. If you have 5 members on a 20 member lower level team it's not enough to stack the team and give them an automatic win because the other 15 members are at the correct level or below. Why won't the board consider a limit? Has anyone ever brought it up to them?

flipkidjudge · Senior Member

Anonymous wrote:

Making 4.2 and the soon to be 5.2 a no cross-over division would stop gyms from stacking down just to win a trophy. We shouldn't however, eliminate cross-overs all together we just need to limit them. You never know if someone will get sick, roll an ankle or quit.

That could work very well with 4.2. I could more support 4.2 if I knew it wasn't going to be unfairly stacked against the same kids they are trying to help.it could also be a way to develop a crossover policy that could be eventually rolled out to other divisions. Great thought!

Date: Fri Sep 26 8:53 AM, 2008

Anonymous wrote:

I don't think it will work in the long run since cheerleading is going to be regulated by the goverment with national guidleines that include springfloors for basket tosses, fulls and two high pyramids. I guess "big brother" Varsity thinks that these parents of dead and paralyzed cheerleaders are going to go away.

Hey, why don't we stop spending so much money on their overpriced uniforms made in China for 22 cents and trips to Florida for one of 1000 so called nationals and buy spring floors, safety equipment and tumbling coaches? Just a thought.

I had the same reaction as you.

Gym Coach · Member

flipkidjudge wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Making 4.2 and the soon to be 5.2 a no cross-over division would stop gyms from stacking down just to win a trophy. We shouldn't however, eliminate cross-overs all together we just need to limit them. You never know if someone will get sick, roll an ankle or quit.

That could work very well with 4.2. I could more support 4.2 if I knew it wasn't going to be unfairly stacked against the same kids they are trying to help.it could also be a way to develop a crossover policy that could be eventually rolled out to other divisions. Great thought!

Thanks, I don't understand how the KISS principle isn't used more.

KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid

Limiting the number of crossovers won't solve all of the problems but I do think it will give those gyms Level 4.2 was designed for a better chance at success and survival...

I wouldn't used the % on this either I would make it 3, 4 or 5. Doesn't matter whether or not it is a small or large division.

Date: Sat Sep 27 9:42 AM, 2008

Gym Coach wrote:

flipkidjudge wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Making 4.2 and the soon to be 5.2 a no cross-over division would stop gyms from stacking down just to win a trophy. We shouldn't however, eliminate cross-overs all together we just need to limit them. You never know if someone will get sick, roll an ankle or quit.

That could work very well with 4.2. I could more support 4.2 if I knew it wasn't going to be unfairly stacked against the same kids they are trying to help.it could also be a way to develop a crossover policy that could be eventually rolled out to other divisions. Great thought!

Thanks, I don't understand how the KISS principle isn't used more.

KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid

Limiting the number of crossovers won't solve all of the problems but I do think it will give those gyms Level 4.2 was designed for a better chance at success and survival...

I wouldn't used the % on this either I would make it 3, 4 or 5. Doesn't matter whether or not it is a small or large division.

I think using a % makes more sense, which is why I like 25%. Say you have a small team of 12 and you're competing in 4.2, or 4, or 3, 2, doesn't matter. If the magic number of crossovers allowed is 5, then you can have 5 members from a level 5 if you want. That's almost half your team. But 25% would only allow 3. I think it makes a difference.