Not necessarily flying but basing, yes, because it is a team effort.  It still takes strength, technique, timing & overcoming fear but it is much easier to get a new person to base level 4 stunts than to start new and tumble level 4 in a few months.

Anonymous wrote:

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The part I don't understand is this-- is it really that easy for older members coming off the street who are new to cheer to jump into level 4 stunting skills???   This is news to me.  

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I think the question should be asked, can you get someone off the street and do level 4 skills technically correct? Yes you can grab someone and teach them a basket toss and lib, but doing it in a routine at a true level 4 is something different.

So what is the answer to ban cross overs?  You might just see gyms fielding more teams at thier true levels.  Wouldn't that even the playing field for everyone.

My daughter is at a small gym.  Her team has competed against teams that use cross overs from thier higher level teams.  Sometimes they have won, and other times they have lost.  I know that the big debate is you can only do the skills that level allows, etc., so why not.  I think some gyms use cross overs to stack thier lower level teams with more tumbling they would not have if they did not use cross overs.  This is where it hurts the smaller gyms that don't have the large pool of talent to pull from.  If cross overs where not allowed then this new level 4.2 would be a true level team as far as tumbling skills, and they could stunt thier hearts out.

If you banned crossovers you could fix the problem, but that may not be the best fix. Frankly it makes too much money for the comp companies and the gyms that charge for it to do away with it. (Our gym does not charge for crossovers) I can see a reasonable use of crossovers and am open to the discussion of how many and how many levels can they go up or down.

If there was true leveling at every level and every gym regardless of size, reputation or influence would have to follow it that would fix the problem and then would make it a little bit easier to swallow the alleged sated reasonings behind 4.2...even though it would still be cod liver oil going down. I am in favor of true leveling. Because right now I could take my entire Level 4 team and compete them in 4.2. Same stunts, same music, same counts... just max out level 2 tumbling. That would not be fair to those gyms who really need that type of a division for the stated reason. (And believe me this will happen from many gyms this year!)

Where one gym uses crossovers as needed, others exploit it simply for the win. That is what will happen with the Level 4.2. Gyms with 300 members crossover to beat gyms with 50 members. Wow.

Also understand the USASF has determined that a small gym is defined as one that has no more than 100 members and no more than one location. (Crossovers do not count for that number)

-- Edited by flipkidjudge at 11:17, 2008-09-15

Anonymous wrote:

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Can I ask why does your gym use crossovers? Did you use crossovers to make a team better or more competitive? Do you have any kids that compete level four and five? Has your gym ever had a team drop down a level?

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Is this a general question, or are you asking me personally?

 

-- Edited by flipkidjudge at 13:10, 2008-09-15

Anonymous wrote:

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Can I ask why does your gym use crossovers? Did you use crossovers to make a team better or more competitive? Do you have any kids that compete level four and five? Has your gym ever had a team drop down a level?

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Thank you for the clarification. Let me say again that I am personally against crossovers. I feel that the rules as they are presently written are too lax and there is no way to enforce leveling without blatant favoritism. I was spoiled by gymnastics that expected that once you showed consistency at attaining a certain score, it was time to move up to the next challenge. Also that there is a major difference between competing a level and being competitive in that same level. That being said:

Yes our gym does use crossovers. We did not use them much years ago and were constantly getting beat by gyms who dropped levels and sandbagged athletes to win. A decision was made just as I started working here (so I had zero influence on it at that time) that we would crossover those who wanted to crossover in order to be competitive against gyms in our state. Otherwise as a small gym we had little chance against Level 5's who dropped down to Level 3. We do not charge our athletes to crossover so that makes it financially easier for those to do it. The only thing the pay is the comp compnay crossover fee.

I think initially it was just to make the teams more competitive. NC is very competitve with several strong gyms across the state. IMHO there are only two gyms in NC that could not only compete but be competitve without crossing over...and they both use crossovers to the fullest extent they can. With crossovers you could put up more stunt groups and have a greater presence on the floor. Having 24 kids on a large team even though all at true skill level is less impressive visually against a team of 36, even if the skill levels are mixed. Same would hold true with a small team of 12 vs a small team of 20. Many coaches feel that although the visual impression

A byproduct of this was that kids got better faster. You could afford to give a child who could not fly on one team the opportunity to fly on another team. The kids were spending more time in the gym which gave them more instruction. More time to tumble, more time to stunt, more to time to dance. On one team a child could be a leader type while on the other one they could be more of a follower while their skills caught up to speed.

We have one Large Senior All Girl Level 4 team currently with another team possibly able to go Senior Coed 4 by January that is curerently Level 3. We have athletes whose assigned base team (determined after tryouts) is Level 4 who have been invited to cross over to Level 5...but not those who are assigned to Level 5 that cross down to Level 4. Once a base team assignment is made and agreed upon, that child can not cross over to a higher team, then drop their Lower team. If anything they have to drop their higher team.

In 2006-2007 we had a Youth Level 5 team that after the first competition we decided to drop them to Level 4. Their tumbling was fine with 3/4 of the teams throwing fulls and 2 standing fulls. The issue was the stunting was not truly Level 5. We decided that if we really wanted that team to be competitive they needed to go Level 4. That year they only comepted two events as Level 5, the first event and one local event where there was no one in their division in Level 4 or 5. In 2004-2005 we had a Senior Level 5 team that dropped for one competition (CheerSport) to Level 3. It was their first year as a Level 5 and we had a very bad experience with a major comp company who told us that the team was a Level 3 or 4 team at best...even though they won in their division.

The first dropping down I understood and agreed with. The children needed time to develop their stunting and their performance as level 5 athletes. You can have Level 5 skills but a Level 3 mind. It is also one thing to drop once at the begiining of the year and stay at that Level for the rest of the year. After that one year we felt we would have a very strong competitve Youth Level 5 team. While the coaches and kids were okay with it, most of the parents of that team did not like it and subsequently left for a larger program where they felt their child would be Level 5 regardless. The second instance I discussed I did not agree with. If we dropped at all it should have been to 4. We bombed that comp royally as kids went in over confident and arrogant...had major chaos on day one, hit on day two. Wrong way to approach a comp...even if you know you are better DON'T TRIP OR ACT LIKE IT!!!

Hope I answered your question.

-- Edited by flipkidjudge at 17:37, 2008-09-15

While I agree with your tought, I stiil think don't believe that is a good idea for the all star industry.  Yes, not all people will learn to tumble, but if we start changing the standard s for the sport, it will just become more diluted.  For example, some kids have the talent to make high school sports, but if not, their are other alternatives such as park and rec, little league, etc.... same for cheerleading. I do feel that everyone who wants to participate in allstars should get the opportunity, but that is what 1-4 levels are for. Tumbling is a huge part of the sport, especially when you get to level 4 and 5. So if you aren't as talented in that area, then maybe you should consider  someting different or stay at a level in which you are strong in all the skills.  if we keep making exceptions and lowing the bar, we might as well call ourselves popwarner cheer and call it a day.(Not that I don't feel pop warner is awesome, i just think that we have gotten this far with  all star cheerleading, why screw it up now!!!)  It seems to be just another ploy to make more money in an alraedy expensive industry.

Anonymous wrote:

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Here are my thoughts.  I like it.  I did not take the time to read all pages of th8is post ... got through the first 3 so this may have already been said. 

Tumbling is not a skill that EVERYONE can learn.  Stunting is easier to teach to a broad range of people.  Many people who are amazing athletes can not tumble and never will.  Forcing all cheerleaders to also be gymnasts is not safe.

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Thats not true if you coach, you know that alot of strong tumbling teams make the WORST stunters. They can stick stunts, but they are not strong at them.