True Level 5 Skills

Date: Sat Jun 7 3:35 PM, 2008

RE: True Level 5 Skills

flipkidjudge · Senior Member

Anonymous wrote:

Flipkidjudge, great post! Most of what you said about gymnastics is still how it works, at least it was a couple of years ago when I left.

I think the biggest obstacle that cheer faces is a sense of entitlement that parents and gym owners seem to feel. One of the reasons gymnastics is able to run smoothly is there are rules put in place by the governing body (They used to call it the USGF) and are accepted as a rule. Not saying people don't complain about it within their gym or with their friends, but they also can just deal with it and move on. What I'm seeing with cheerleading is that every proposed rule is being met with a huge amount of resistance. People feel that it is their "right" to be able to do whatever they want. While this is true, they do have rights, I think it is important to realize that there must be some compromise made between different groups.

For example, the proposed rule about banning crop tops. The amount of anger that people expressed over something as silly as a crop top was astounding. The way I see it is if you're the best athletes then you will win and no one cares what you're wearing. So if the USASF (or whatever it is now) wants to require everyone to compete in full tops because they feel it is more accepted world wide, then there's no reason to fight it. But when that issue came up I heard a lot of "no one can tell my daughter what to wear" or "I have the right to put my team in crop tops if I want" which in my opinion is just counter productive.

I think it is very similar to raising children, one of the most important things to keep in mind with kids is to choose your battles wisely. If you fight them over every little thing that they do pretty soon you become ineffective. But if you realize that it's really important that your child eat food, but not really so important if they want to play in the dirt (because children are washable after all) then you'll be able to create much happier existence for both you and your child.

So when it comes to cheerleading, fight for the things that affect the athletes; spring floors, safety equipment, safety certification of coaches, and let the things go that, in the big picture, aren't that big of a deal; uniforms, whether the really bad Level 5 team that can't do backhandsprings manages to find a bid to World's and gets last (no matter what you think this is not hurting you, your child, or cheerleading as a sport in any way).

I'm sure I offended someone, but there were no personal attacks in my post. I don't know anyone on this board or really anyone in All Star cheerleading anymore so even if you think I'm talking about you, I'm not.

You have made some great observations. I was watching the National Championships of Gymnastics today. Although the focus was on the top athletes, there were many other athletes there that did not get "face time" on the camera. But it did not stop them from competing. it also did not lessen their experience. Why? Because everyone there had to qualify by the same process to get there. It does not matter where they live geograpahically, or where they train. If they get the scores and do it as the rules say, they can make it to the same event. No matter how "blind" we want to be to it, cheer is that way...there is currently too much money/business issues involved to make it completely level for everybody.

When I coached it was USGF...still have my original member's card. But I judged for NAWGJ at USGF evenbts. NAWGJ was responsible for my training and assignments. They set my per diem. The Code of Points was FIG. They detremined what each skill was catergorized in relation to percieved difficulty. Then I had the gym I worked for, plus my own compass to guide me. In all five different checks and balances. I never accepted assignments to judge competitions where my girls were competing. I never underscored a rival gym, nor was I ever unethically approached to change my scores. (In gymnastics there is a real petition system that yopu can use if you feel the judges missed something. It is not hidden behind closed doors as I have seen in some cheerleading events) You can not challenge another gymnats/teams score because you lost to them.

I think resistance is coming from several areas. First and foremost you have many people concerned that one company alone is dictating all these changes. because (right now) they control the premier event (no pun intended) in the cheerleading world, they pretty much have control of it all. Most of the people in decision making positions are from larger more established gyms, while the smaller gym voice is patronized...much like it is in politics and religion..we really want your money, but not to hear what you say.

Then you have them setting standards that are questionable. How about effectively developing a system to proplerly score every team, without regards to favorites? What about training all judges to go by the same rules all the time and not enforece rules selectively or conviently? If you are going to have credentialling, make it legitimate...not just a pay my money and get a membership. Do a much better job of meeting with small gym owners who are your biggest critics instead of maintaing a "screw em" mentality. If those things were being esatblished, I would have little issue over the crop top issue. But to attempt to legitmize that without addressing the other opens some other doors that if it happens like I have seen in other sports, it will not be good, except for the parent company.

Then you have owners who are trying to stay afloat in a brutally competive and vicious market. Rumors, lies and innuendo about almost every program is strategically launched either by other owners, coaches or disallusioned parents or kids with the sole purpose of taking you out of buisness. Truth is taking out of context to prove points. Teams actively spy on other teams...scouting websites, spending endless hours on YouTube and sending parents to clandestinely video tape competitiors..to see what we are up against. Every gym has a spy in the camp....lol.

Then you have the whole Level 5 saga. This boils down to if you do not have a Level 5 program, you may as well quit now. Quite honestly if we did not have a Level 5 program we might have to close no matter how good our other teams are., because that has been elevated as the must have standard for a gym. You must compete level 5 or else who cares about your program, except those who attend? I hate that mentality.

This last issue is pushed more by the parents trying to live vicariously through their children's lives than anything else. They are never satisfied with anything but winning and are loyal only as long as they are getting what they want. Take their child out the air because they are struggling flying and they will go to the same rivals program they they endlessly bashed...as long as their darling can still fly. Remove them from the tumbling sequence because they have tumbling issues and they will blame every coach in the world for not fixing it, rather than address the real issues..whatever they may be.

I gotta run...I will finsh this later...lol.

Date: Sat Jun 7 8:02 PM, 2008

flipkidjudge wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Flipkidjudge, great post! Most of what you said about gymnastics is still how it works, at least it was a couple of years ago when I left.

I think the biggest obstacle that cheer faces is a sense of entitlement that parents and gym owners seem to feel. One of the reasons gymnastics is able to run smoothly is there are rules put in place by the governing body (They used to call it the USGF) and are accepted as a rule. Not saying people don't complain about it within their gym or with their friends, but they also can just deal with it and move on. What I'm seeing with cheerleading is that every proposed rule is being met with a huge amount of resistance. People feel that it is their "right" to be able to do whatever they want. While this is true, they do have rights, I think it is important to realize that there must be some compromise made between different groups.

For example, the proposed rule about banning crop tops. The amount of anger that people expressed over something as silly as a crop top was astounding. The way I see it is if you're the best athletes then you will win and no one cares what you're wearing. So if the USASF (or whatever it is now) wants to require everyone to compete in full tops because they feel it is more accepted world wide, then there's no reason to fight it. But when that issue came up I heard a lot of "no one can tell my daughter what to wear" or "I have the right to put my team in crop tops if I want" which in my opinion is just counter productive.

I think it is very similar to raising children, one of the most important things to keep in mind with kids is to choose your battles wisely. If you fight them over every little thing that they do pretty soon you become ineffective. But if you realize that it's really important that your child eat food, but not really so important if they want to play in the dirt (because children are washable after all) then you'll be able to create much happier existence for both you and your child.

So when it comes to cheerleading, fight for the things that affect the athletes; spring floors, safety equipment, safety certification of coaches, and let the things go that, in the big picture, aren't that big of a deal; uniforms, whether the really bad Level 5 team that can't do backhandsprings manages to find a bid to World's and gets last (no matter what you think this is not hurting you, your child, or cheerleading as a sport in any way).

I'm sure I offended someone, but there were no personal attacks in my post. I don't know anyone on this board or really anyone in All Star cheerleading anymore so even if you think I'm talking about you, I'm not.

You have made some great observations. I was watching the National Championships of Gymnastics today. Although the focus was on the top athletes, there were many other athletes there that did not get "face time" on the camera. But it did not stop them from competing. it also did not lessen their experience. Why? Because everyone there had to qualify by the same process to get there. It does not matter where they live geograpahically, or where they train. If they get the scores and do it as the rules say, they can make it to the same event. No matter how "blind" we want to be to it, cheer is that way...there is currently too much money/business issues involved to make it completely level for everybody.

When I coached it was USGF...still have my original member's card. But I judged for NAWGJ at USGF evenbts. NAWGJ was responsible for my training and assignments. They set my per diem. The Code of Points was FIG. They detremined what each skill was catergorized in relation to percieved difficulty. Then I had the gym I worked for, plus my own compass to guide me. In all five different checks and balances. I never accepted assignments to judge competitions where my girls were competing. I never underscored a rival gym, nor was I ever unethically approached to change my scores. (In gymnastics there is a real petition system that yopu can use if you feel the judges missed something. It is not hidden behind closed doors as I have seen in some cheerleading events) You can not challenge another gymnats/teams score because you lost to them.
I think resistance is coming from several areas. First and foremost you have many people concerned that one company alone is dictating all these changes. because (right now) they control the premier event (no pun intended) in the cheerleading world, they pretty much have control of it all. Most of the people in decision making positions are from larger more established gyms, while the smaller gym voice is patronized...much like it is in politics and religion..we really want your money, but not to hear what you say.

Then you have them setting standards that are questionable. How about effectively developing a system to proplerly score every team, without regards to favorites? What about training all judges to go by the same rules all the time and not enforece rules selectively or conviently? If you are going to have credentialling, make it legitimate...not just a pay my money and get a membership. Do a much better job of meeting with small gym owners who are your biggest critics instead of maintaing a "screw em" mentality. If those things were being esatblished, I would have little issue over the crop top issue. But to attempt to legitmize that without addressing the other opens some other doors that if it happens like I have seen in other sports, it will not be good, except for the parent company.
Then you have owners who are trying to stay afloat in a brutally competive and vicious market. Rumors, lies and innuendo about almost every program is strategically launched either by other owners, coaches or disallusioned parents or kids with the sole purpose of taking you out of buisness. Truth is taking out of context to prove points. Teams actively spy on other teams...scouting websites, spending endless hours on YouTube and sending parents to clandestinely video tape competitiors..to see what we are up against. Every gym has a spy in the camp....lol.
Then you have the whole Level 5 saga. This boils down to if you do not have a Level 5 program, you may as well quit now. Quite honestly if we did not have a Level 5 program we might have to close no matter how good our other teams are., because that has been elevated as the must have standard for a gym. You must compete level 5 or else who cares about your program, except those who attend? I hate that mentality.

This last issue is pushed more by the parents trying to live vicariously through their children's lives than anything else. They are never satisfied with anything but winning and are loyal only as long as they are getting what they want. Take their child out the air because they are struggling flying and they will go to the same rivals program they they endlessly bashed...as long as their darling can still fly. Remove them from the tumbling sequence because they have tumbling issues and they will blame every coach in the world for not fixing it, rather than address the real issues..whatever they may be.
I gotta run...I will finsh this later...lol.

I love reading your post, you are the Dr. Phil of cheerleading everything you say is so right on the money.

Date: Sun Jun 8 12:50 AM, 2008

flipkidjudge wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Flipkidjudge, great post! Most of what you said about gymnastics is still how it works, at least it was a couple of years ago when I left.

I think the biggest obstacle that cheer faces is a sense of entitlement that parents and gym owners seem to feel. One of the reasons gymnastics is able to run smoothly is there are rules put in place by the governing body (They used to call it the USGF) and are accepted as a rule. Not saying people don't complain about it within their gym or with their friends, but they also can just deal with it and move on. What I'm seeing with cheerleading is that every proposed rule is being met with a huge amount of resistance. People feel that it is their "right" to be able to do whatever they want. While this is true, they do have rights, I think it is important to realize that there must be some compromise made between different groups.

For example, the proposed rule about banning crop tops. The amount of anger that people expressed over something as silly as a crop top was astounding. The way I see it is if you're the best athletes then you will win and no one cares what you're wearing. So if the USASF (or whatever it is now) wants to require everyone to compete in full tops because they feel it is more accepted world wide, then there's no reason to fight it. But when that issue came up I heard a lot of "no one can tell my daughter what to wear" or "I have the right to put my team in crop tops if I want" which in my opinion is just counter productive.

I think it is very similar to raising children, one of the most important things to keep in mind with kids is to choose your battles wisely. If you fight them over every little thing that they do pretty soon you become ineffective. But if you realize that it's really important that your child eat food, but not really so important if they want to play in the dirt (because children are washable after all) then you'll be able to create much happier existence for both you and your child.

So when it comes to cheerleading, fight for the things that affect the athletes; spring floors, safety equipment, safety certification of coaches, and let the things go that, in the big picture, aren't that big of a deal; uniforms, whether the really bad Level 5 team that can't do backhandsprings manages to find a bid to World's and gets last (no matter what you think this is not hurting you, your child, or cheerleading as a sport in any way).

I'm sure I offended someone, but there were no personal attacks in my post. I don't know anyone on this board or really anyone in All Star cheerleading anymore so even if you think I'm talking about you, I'm not.

You have made some great observations. I was watching the National Championships of Gymnastics today. Although the focus was on the top athletes, there were many other athletes there that did not get "face time" on the camera. But it did not stop them from competing. it also did not lessen their experience. Why? Because everyone there had to qualify by the same process to get there. It does not matter where they live geograpahically, or where they train. If they get the scores and do it as the rules say, they can make it to the same event. No matter how "blind" we want to be to it, cheer is that way...there is currently too much money/business issues involved to make it completely level for everybody.

When I coached it was USGF...still have my original member's card. But I judged for NAWGJ at USGF evenbts. NAWGJ was responsible for my training and assignments. They set my per diem. The Code of Points was FIG. They detremined what each skill was catergorized in relation to percieved difficulty. Then I had the gym I worked for, plus my own compass to guide me. In all five different checks and balances. I never accepted assignments to judge competitions where my girls were competing. I never underscored a rival gym, nor was I ever unethically approached to change my scores. (In gymnastics there is a real petition system that yopu can use if you feel the judges missed something. It is not hidden behind closed doors as I have seen in some cheerleading events) You can not challenge another gymnats/teams score because you lost to them.
I think resistance is coming from several areas. First and foremost you have many people concerned that one company alone is dictating all these changes. because (right now) they control the premier event (no pun intended) in the cheerleading world, they pretty much have control of it all. Most of the people in decision making positions are from larger more established gyms, while the smaller gym voice is patronized...much like it is in politics and religion..we really want your money, but not to hear what you say.

Then you have them setting standards that are questionable. How about effectively developing a system to proplerly score every team, without regards to favorites? What about training all judges to go by the same rules all the time and not enforece rules selectively or conviently? If you are going to have credentialling, make it legitimate...not just a pay my money and get a membership. Do a much better job of meeting with small gym owners who are your biggest critics instead of maintaing a "screw em" mentality. If those things were being esatblished, I would have little issue over the crop top issue. But to attempt to legitmize that without addressing the other opens some other doors that if it happens like I have seen in other sports, it will not be good, except for the parent company.
Then you have owners who are trying to stay afloat in a brutally competive and vicious market. Rumors, lies and innuendo about almost every program is strategically launched either by other owners, coaches or disallusioned parents or kids with the sole purpose of taking you out of buisness. Truth is taking out of context to prove points. Teams actively spy on other teams...scouting websites, spending endless hours on YouTube and sending parents to clandestinely video tape competitiors..to see what we are up against. Every gym has a spy in the camp....lol.
Then you have the whole Level 5 saga. This boils down to if you do not have a Level 5 program, you may as well quit now. Quite honestly if we did not have a Level 5 program we might have to close no matter how good our other teams are., because that has been elevated as the must have standard for a gym. You must compete level 5 or else who cares about your program, except those who attend? I hate that mentality.

This last issue is pushed more by the parents trying to live vicariously through their children's lives than anything else. They are never satisfied with anything but winning and are loyal only as long as they are getting what they want. Take their child out the air because they are struggling flying and they will go to the same rivals program they they endlessly bashed...as long as their darling can still fly. Remove them from the tumbling sequence because they have tumbling issues and they will blame every coach in the world for not fixing it, rather than address the real issues..whatever they may be.
I gotta run...I will finsh this later...lol.

Wait, you forgot one from those parents.. The ones that will only have the kids cheer if it is free..because the skills are percieved in high demand, so they want to be paid... funny part is they do get free rides and expect to be the stars or they will go to yet another gym that will pay for them..its great....makes me laugh because guess who ends up on he short end of the stick???

flipkidjudge · Senior Member

Rofl! I did not forget that one...just hadn't got to it yet....

I partially blame some owners for that one too. In their never ending quest to win, they will do what they can to cut the legs out of fellow gyms around them in the name of winning, but get mad that there is drama and tension between them. What I admit I do not get is how any gym that recruits from other gyms don't think the kids/parents/owners/coaches won't be upset at them? Sorry but i do not want to be friends with anyone who is constantly trying to stab me in my back and in my chest.

Parents who do as you say need to be shown the door quick. I do not care how talented the child is. Usaually the apple don't fall far from the tree, so their children may evntually be a real piece of work as well. A gym that stands their ground and maintains some semblence of order will prosper in the long run. The week before two of our teams winning their World's bids, we kicked our admittedly best level 5 flyer off the team. (Kick double/hitch kick double/full up-RoBHSFull; Front thru to Full and Double with a spot) Of course she promtly went to another local gym berating us, and joining in recruiting other kids from our gym over there. The team she was on with us went to World's and now she is no longer cheering All Star. The team operated so much better with her gone because there was no longer that tension and drama she brought every day she was at the gym. Cheerleaders who used her negative example not to push themselves now had no choice but to push. Of course we would rather she stayed but she made that an impossibility.

In her case, her parents were enablers. Never checked her behavior. It is not the job of the coaches and owners to be the parent although they may fill that role at times if the parents are not present.

For the one who made the Dr. Phil comment...Thanks...but I would never pay for someone to be on my show...uhh..teams...rofl!!! biggrin

-- Edited by flipkidjudge at 10:08, 2008-06-08