Lessons Learned Last Season

Date: Thu May 8 11:26 PM, 2008

RE: Lessons Learned Last Season

Date: Thu May 8 11:30 PM, 2008

Anonymous wrote:

I like to compare it to other sports, like baseball teams, football teams. If you have a season plagued with injuries, you just have to deal with it, right?? You don't get to take your team and drop them down to a lesser league. You still have to go out there and do the best with what you have. It's hard to take our sport seriously when we have the freedom to pick and choose which level we decide we want to be in at any given time.

You aren't educated in what other sports do are you? Motocross, wakeboarding and so many more you can drop down levels to win. You might not like it but that is how it is.

Date: Thu May 8 11:35 PM, 2008

Here is something to change the way this is going. How about letting kids back in the program that left your program to go to another program. I have found that it isn't worth it? What do others think about this?

CheerTyme Owner · Senior Member

Unless a family did something to have themselves removed from my program I always let kids come back to my program.

Date: Fri May 9 6:40 AM, 2008

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I like to compare it to other sports, like baseball teams, football teams. If you have a season plagued with injuries, you just have to deal with it, right?? You don't get to take your team and drop them down to a lesser league. You still have to go out there and do the best with what you have. It's hard to take our sport seriously when we have the freedom to pick and choose which level we decide we want to be in at any given time.

You aren't educated in what other sports do are you? Motocross, wakeboarding and so many more you can drop down levels to win. You might not like it but that is how it is.

Motorcross and wakeboarding, how silly of the poster to not think of those.

Seriously, I think Acedad has a good point. If only that were the only reason teams dropped levels (injuries). It's just unfortunate for some gyms it's about winning and dominating in a level you know you are overqualified in.

flipkidjudge · Senior Member

Anonymous wrote:

Was there anything in particular about last season that you hope isn't repeated this season?

Here's mine. I would like to see higher standards when determining levels. If there were any lessons learned from the last season I hope it's that you should know fairly quickly (like after your first couple of competitions) if you are fielding a team in the wrong level. Don't put your athletes through that the entire season. If you do you run the risk of losing members the following season. I have to say that is my biggest pet peeve about our sport, and hopefully there will be tougher competition this coming season.

I see your point. I am one that does not think that any team has to win all the time to prove it belongs at that level. it has to be competitive though. One of the challenges in that, esp for a small gym, is not losing your highly trained athletes who have to comeopte at a much lower level than the skill they have.(example I had a level 5 in Virginia who had to compete on Level 3 because the gym was not strong enough to be competitive at level 4. While the easy answer for many parents was switch gyms, I admired her and her parents loyalty to build the program there. She made a committment, stuck with it, and now that the gym is closing she will be able to be on level 5 team next year.)

I would love to see higher standards but to me that comes primarily from the judging/rules arena and works downward. In the same line I would like to see stricter late entries especially from gyms that wait to register late on purpose to switch divisions. Unless a comp cancels, the Friday 1 week before the comp should be the latest, no excuses. That would give the comp company to adjust the schedule, print it by Monday and then make crossover adjustments without getting calls from gyms that "conviently forgot" to register until after the schedule was posted. (sarcasm intended)

As a coach you can have a child make the team with the required skill set, then lose it due to injury, mental block, poor technique or forever and then you are in a conudrum. Do you demote the kid because they were injured? No. Do you demote the kid because the have a mental block? Sign up for privates? What if they can not afford privates to get one on one time to fix it? Only if you are a mega gym and have enough members to pull folks and replace anyone at a moments notice can you stick with a threat to "demote" someone for loss of skill, but that still hurts the kids/parents plus alters the dynamic of the team. Every year since we have had level 5 we have had kids make the level 5 teams with fulls or better during tryouts, during summer and by competition time poof...gone. no reasoning...just blocks. if you demote those kids or drop to Level 4 you don't have a level 5 team at all, which then sends the rest of those level 5 parents to another gym. (it happened to us last year with our Youth 4/5)

What about those cheer parents who "insist or else" that their child be on a certain team that is higher than their true skill level because 'they will work harder, be with their friends, or they don't want to cheer another year at level 2 with only a ROBHS?" Or is a grerat tumbler but does zero work on jumps, motions, dance, transitions and is shaky at best in stunt groups. But they only want to be on level 4 or better because of their tumbling, but everything else is level 1/2. Those that will leave a program and go down the street because they were not placed high enough...lol. All of those things hurt the business side of the sport and it may be why you see some teams not truly competing "at level" as you say.

If you standardize score sheets and rules, then you can assign a certain score or better to move up a Level. Once that score is reached two times in the same year, move up. You could have petitions for special circumstances of course, but all of this will only work if people are willing to go with one system (right now they are not) one judging body (right now they are not) and one set of rules for the sport.

-- Edited by flipkidjudge at 08:20, 2008-05-09

Date: Fri May 9 8:55 AM, 2008

Anonymous wrote:

I would have to agree with you completely on this subject. We have witnessed cheerleaders being placed on Level 5 teams that did not have the tumbling skills that were needed to make this team successful. One gym in particular put 11 additional people on their level 5 team last year so they could compete as a lg. level 5 co-ed team and set them up for the past two season to fail. This defeats and humilated these athletes.

This same gym places other level cheerleaders on teams that "the parents want their cheerleader to be on" I don't feel this is a smart business move, because these athletes just like any other sport should be placed on the team of their ability, for the cheerleaders that dedicate and accomplish the skills needed for that team, it is not fair to bring a level 1 or 2 cheerleader to a level 5 team because they are good friends with the owners. Ridiculous! Why work so hard to get skills when they have others on the team who bought their way in or play favoritisms because of acquired friendships with the parents?

I give Kudo's to gyms like POWER, Fusion, Nor Cal, who make up teams according to skills and require cheerleaders to come up to par with all cheerleaders placed on the team or they get moved to the appropriate team.

We persoanlly are excited about seeing some new "standards made this year" and the Nor Cal Alliance!!! How exciting!!

-- Edited by Monitor 8 at 14:52, 2008-05-08

All these gyms do not always max out their scoresheet, the majority of their teams, but not all. Some gyms have to bump their kids up a level if less than half have a skill or those higher kids will leave. Not a theory but a fact. Kids in Northern California along with their parents have unreal expectations of how good their child is. It's funny b ecause of the most of the level 5 cali teams are just good level 4 teams in other parts of the country.

Date: Fri May 9 9:44 AM, 2008

It's all so subjective. If you max out at your level with half the squad capable of competing at a higher level, then you're accused of sandbagging. If you move up to the next level with only half the squad throwing those skills, then you're criticized for not competing at the "lower level where you belong" - You can't please all of the people all of the time, so let the gyms decide what's best for their teams and their kids. If they're happy winning most of the time even though it's a lower level, why not? Likewise, if they are happier competing at the higher level where they might win, but likely will place 2nd or below, then why not also? There's no perfect formula.

Date: Fri May 9 11:03 AM, 2008

I agree with the last post, there is no perfect formula. What bothers me the most are the extreme cases. Teams that have 90% of their members on a team one or two levels below what they are capable of, or teams who do so poorly at competitions you wonder what in the world their coach is thinking. The in-between, I agree, you can't please everyone. But can we at least work on fixing the extremes?

Date: Fri May 9 12:55 PM, 2008

Anonymous wrote:

Here is something to change the way this is going. How about letting kids back in the program that left your program to go to another program. I have found that it isn't worth it? What do others think about this?

I disagree with this. Sometimes it takes that individual to leave your program to realize that they want to be a part of your family again. It happens every year are our gym. Roughly 30 kids get exchanged between the two bigger gyms in our town each year and we always have people who left return.

Tamara · cheergyms.com Master Poster

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Here is something to change the way this is going. How about letting kids back in the program that left your program to go to another program. I have found that it isn't worth it? What do others think about this?
I disagree with this. Sometimes it takes that individual to leave your program to realize that they want to be a part of your family again. It happens every year are our gym. Roughly 30 kids get exchanged between the two bigger gyms in our town each year and we always have people who left return.

I agree with you. If anything the ones that found out the grass isn't always greener would probably be the first gym's being proponent. I mean they've been there done that.

AChamp · Veteran Member

Anonymous wrote:

I agree with the last post, there is no perfect formula. What bothers me the most are the extreme cases. Teams that have 90% of their members on a team one or two levels below what they are capable of, or teams who do so poorly at competitions you wonder what in the world their coach is thinking. The in-between, I agree, you can't please everyone. But can we at least work on fixing the extremes?

just because a team competes down a level doesnt make it unfair... they have the same rules... if you put a level 5 in level 3 they can still only do tucks... the problem is when coaches put kids that are not true to their level on a team... if you only pick kids that have ALL the skills for that level then all things are equal even if competing against a level 5... i only put kids on a team if they have all of the skills for that level and i NEVER have a problem if some other team moves down because we are still doing the same skills... thats why that argument is a little confusing to me

Date: Fri May 9 2:09 PM, 2008

I agree they can only throw the skills that particular level allows, but how many teams are competing with all true level cheerleaders. At level 2 and 3 most teams have girls that may not have all the tumbling but are good basis, flyers, or jumps to die for. That means that they do not have full squad tumbling. One team last season comes to mind. They previous year performed at a higher level. At the begining of last season they competed at the level they had the year before. When this level proved to be one of the more competitive levels and they were not winning, they dropped down a level in January and of course won first at most if not all of thier competitions. This team also had level 5 cheerleaders who cheered on level 5 teams at different gyms that attended worlds. Mind you I don't believe a couple of girls make a team, but come on it does not hurt either. At one comp this particular gym had these same level 5 cheerleaders filling in on a level 2 team. You can call it sandbagging, or whatever they are not the only ones doing it. Making up a bunch of new rules I don't think is the answer. Makes you shake your head and wonder about the ethics of some gym owners/coaches to secure a win.

Date: Fri May 9 3:49 PM, 2008

You are talking about a couple girls who went to Worlds on level 5 teams... a couple of girls?? Complain about half a team or over half a team, but two girls is extremely petty. And bringing ethics into it is really kind of pathetic. Anyway, kudos to the team for realizing they were not at the level they started with. Like someone said, and this fits perfectly... you can't win if you stay in a level and people say you aren't really true to that level, and you can't win if you drop down and (gasp) win in a lower level. I guess gyms who don't like you for whatever reason think you should just stay right in the middle? Forgive them if they do what they feel is right for them.

Date: Fri May 9 4:33 PM, 2008

Here is something interesting. Once a girl gets a new pass they assume they should move up. Why is this. Parents think they are being held back. They all think their kids are ROCK STARS. This just sickens me so much. What about the team. Some people are very selfish and it shows. Remember cheer is not only about thier tumbling level it is about all skills. PARENTS please keep this in mind. Your daughters arent the only ones doing these skills so you have to think of what is best for the team. Just because your daughter is small and has a tuck does not mean they automatically will fly they must have the skills to flyer. Stop being so difficult and think of others. You will never be happy wherever you go and burning bridges is a horrible thing.

Date: Fri May 9 5:17 PM, 2008

Anonymous wrote:

Here is something interesting. Once a girl gets a new pass they assume they should move up. Why is this. Parents think they are being held back. They all think their kids are ROCK STARS. This just sickens me so much. What about the team. Some people are very selfish and it shows. Remember cheer is not only about thier tumbling level it is about all skills. PARENTS please keep this in mind. Your daughters arent the only ones doing these skills so you have to think of what is best for the team. Just because your daughter is small and has a tuck does not mean they automatically will fly they must have the skills to flyer. Stop being so difficult and think of others. You will never be happy wherever you go and burning bridges is a horrible thing.

Well I for one think it's fabulous to see parents that believe in their children and think they are ROCK STARS! I also believe that parents should remain realistic like you stated and not think that just because their daughter gained a skill that there are not others out there that will do the same. I also agree that parents shouldn't think that their daughter should be a flyer even if they have gained the skills to do so. I think we should leave the decision making up to the coaches and staff. We as parents don't get to tell our child's teacher what our student is being teached, so why do most parents think they can dictate to our Coaches? Being a strong base is just as important as being the flyer! Parents allow your children the freedom to enjoy the sport ....

Date: Sat May 10 2:46 PM, 2008

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

NOSEBAG wrote:

I would like the USASF to add a new rule that states all gyms should declare their teams level by a certain date. Gyms could compete all of Nov. and Dec.and maybe the first week of January.
This would give gym owners/coaches enough time to see if they have placed their teams in the right divisions. Then toward nationals we will not see teams dropping down a level just so they can win.

I agree, with this one.

this sounds great!

Ok - this works in theory, but what about two different scenarios:

1 - you compete at a certain level November/December, and then you may have injury/illness of team members, or some leave for personal/financial reasons mid year and you need to cross over or pull up from a lower level squad? The squad may then need to drop down to compete at a lower level.

2 - you start the season November/December at a certain level, and wow - tumbling and stunts get amazingly better mid year and you decide to try the team out at a higher level mid-year.

Oh, and by the way, who at USASF would have the time to micro-manage thousands of squads from all over the country to check every division at every single competition to make sure xyz cheer from podunk where-ever didn't go up or down a level at any given competition after December 31, 2008? It won't happen.

Ya Cheer isn't that cut and dry. It won't happen!

Yeah, let's make more rules. It isn't cut and dry, unless your a coach, gym owner you don't quite understand.

Date: Sat May 10 4:11 PM, 2008

ok

Date: Thu May 22 6:15 AM, 2008

if #2 was true then teams would just register with USASF in a lower division to begin with and then they could sandbag any competitions they needed to and when they didn't they could always compete in a higher division without worrying about your "rule." It sounds good in theory, but in practice would never work.

Date: Thu May 22 8:02 AM, 2008

I was under the impression that the October through January competitions were "regionals" were you had to score a certain percentage to compete at Nationals.
If this is the case how can a team that qualifies at a certain level be able to compete at Nationals at a different level either up or down. You should compete at the level you qualified for. Right??