Coaches that gym hop.

Date: Thu Apr 3 10:10 PM, 2008

RE: Coaches that gym hop.

Date: Thu Apr 3 10:13 PM, 2008

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I believe our gym is much better without this coach. Pass the problem on to the next cheer team. Sad for the new team but they will soon learn and good for us we got rid of one of the biggest problems in our gym.

Please tell us more? It kinda sound like a coach we had this past summer.

All I can say is that it is better for our gym that we wont be having this coach back anymore. She brings too many problems and baggage. It probably is not the same coach but similiar situations. We are so glad to be getting rid of this coach and her problems. I dont know why we even allowed her to join. When she came to us she had a ton of problems from other gyms and they ALL did warn us in a subtle way. We gave her a chance and got burned. So some of the time it is a wise idea to listen and to hear what others are saying and to check references. You cant go back in time but you can learn from your mistakes.

How did you get burned? Are you the owner?

Date: Thu Apr 3 10:20 PM, 2008

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I believe our gym is much better without this coach. Pass the problem on to the next cheer team. Sad for the new team but they will soon learn and good for us we got rid of one of the biggest problems in our gym.

Please tell us more? It kinda sound like a coach we had this past summer.

All I can say is that it is better for our gym that we wont be having this coach back anymore. She brings too many problems and baggage. It probably is not the same coach but similiar situations. We are so glad to be getting rid of this coach and her problems. I dont know why we even allowed her to join. When she came to us she had a ton of problems from other gyms and they ALL did warn us in a subtle way. We gave her a chance and got burned. So some of the time it is a wise idea to listen and to hear what others are saying and to check references. You cant go back in time but you can learn from your mistakes.

I hear you on that one. Yes, our situation was similar in many ways as well. We are very thankful that this coach left our gym as well. I know the cheer world is small but there are still so many secrets that aren't shared and many others coaches or gym owners sit in the competition owners just snickering as they see these coach gym hoppers. Our gym doesn't want to be this way, so perhaps there needs to be a call made to this new owner, because after all she/he is ultimately responsible for her/his coaches's actions.

Date: Thu Apr 3 10:21 PM, 2008

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I believe has rubbed eveyone the wrong way. our gym is much better without this coach. Pass the problem on to the next cheer team. Sad for the new team but they will soon learn and good for us we got rid of one of the biggest problems in our gym.

Please tell us more? It kinda sound like a coach we had this past summer.

All I can say is that it is better for our gym that we wont be having this coach back anymore. She brings too many problems and baggage. It probably is not the same coach but similiar situations. We are so glad to be getting rid of this coach and her problems. I dont know why we even allowed her to join. When she came to us she had a ton of problems from other gyms and they ALL did warn us in a subtle way. We gave her a chance and got burned. So some of the time it is a wise idea to listen and to hear what others are saying and to check references. You cant go back in time but you can learn from your mistakes.

How did you get burned? Are you the owner?

I wish I was the owner because I would not have been so nice.

AChamp · Veteran Member

There is nothing illegal about a coach talking to kids from their old gym... what is illegal is using the old gyms resources to recruit for the new gym... like using rosters or phone/ email lists. As far as contracts go competition clauses are ILLEGAL in california... so if a coach isnt happy they can go where ever they want... and i dont think there should be anything wrong with that. In the end its a job, and if kids follow them thats because they think he/she was a good coach... most of the time loyalty is to the coach and not the program unless you are at a power house gym... as we've seen many many times... but of course my perseptive is as a coach and an athlete not a parent.

Date: Thu Apr 3 11:17 PM, 2008

AChamp wrote:

There is nothing illegal about a coach talking to kids from their old gym... what is illegal is using the old gyms resources to recruit for the new gym... like using rosters or phone/ email lists. As far as contracts go competition clauses are ILLEGAL in california... so if a coach isnt happy they can go where ever they want... and i dont think there should be anything wrong with that. In the end its a job, and if kids follow them thats because they think he/she was a good coach... most of the time loyalty is to the coach and not the program unless you are at a power house gym... as we've seen many many times... but of course my perseptive is as a coach and an athlete not a parent.

I disagree and agree both. I think a coach should be able to go wherever they choose as well. As far as the athletes following them. This is not okay. Because it is the GYM that made it possible for this coach. It is the gym that provided the training. Also of course the parent/athlete are going to be closer to the coach because they work directly with the coach not the owner. I am sure if they worked directly with the owner they would have a bond as well. I think if your gym is doing what it takes they cheerleaders will not follow the coach unless it is more personal. I dont agree with the coaches gym hopping. It makes you wonder about the coaches. Why cant they find one place to call home? Most coaches that do alot of gym hopping are probably not good selections for coaches. Have you ever been on a job interview and they ask you how long you have been with your current employer. This says alot. It shows you are able to settle down and commit. Gym hoppers are usually problem people who cant stay one place for too long because they are problem makers. Here is a good indication that you are a gym hopper

You have been to more than 3 different cheer programs that are within 30 miles of each other. Bare in mind that these programs are still up and running and you did not switch gyms because of a gym closing.
If you have been to 3 or more gyms in the last 3-4 years you are a gym hopper.
If you tend to leave a gym and complain about the gym you left, you are a gym hopper.

AChamp · Veteran Member

Anonymous wrote:

AChamp wrote:

There is nothing illegal about a coach talking to kids from their old gym... what is illegal is using the old gyms resources to recruit for the new gym... like using rosters or phone/ email lists. As far as contracts go competition clauses are ILLEGAL in california... so if a coach isnt happy they can go where ever they want... and i dont think there should be anything wrong with that. In the end its a job, and if kids follow them thats because they think he/she was a good coach... most of the time loyalty is to the coach and not the program unless you are at a power house gym... as we've seen many many times... but of course my perseptive is as a coach and an athlete not a parent.

I disagree and agree both. I think a coach should be able to go wherever they choose as well. As far as the athletes following them. This is not okay. Because it is the GYM that made it possible for this coach. It is the gym that provided the training. Also of course the parent/athlete are going to be closer to the coach because they work directly with the coach not the owner. I am sure if they worked directly with the owner they would have a bond as well. I think if your gym is doing what it takes they cheerleaders will not follow the coach unless it is more personal. I dont agree with the coaches gym hopping. It makes you wonder about the coaches. Why cant they find one place to call home? Most coaches that do alot of gym hopping are probably not good selections for coaches. Have you ever been on a job interview and they ask you how long you have been with your current employer. This says alot. It shows you are able to settle down and commit. Gym hoppers are usually problem people who cant stay one place for too long because they are problem makers. Here is a good indication that you are a gym hopper

You have been to more than 3 different cheer programs that are within 30 miles of each other. Bare in mind that these programs are still up and running and you did not switch gyms because of a gym closing.
If you have been to 3 or more gyms in the last 3-4 years you are a gym hopper.
If you tend to leave a gym and complain about the gym you left, you are a gym hopper.

if you agree that coaches should be able to go where they want, then so should the kids using the same principle... as a customer of a business if you are not geting the service or the results which you are paying for then you should go somewhere that is giving you those results... this includes the coaches you want. There is nothing illegal or wrong with that. Gyms are businesses NOT slave plantations, they dont own the kids

Date: Fri Apr 4 5:37 AM, 2008

Anonymous wrote:

AChamp wrote:

There is nothing illegal about a coach talking to kids from their old gym... what is illegal is using the old gyms resources to recruit for the new gym... like using rosters or phone/ email lists. As far as contracts go competition clauses are ILLEGAL in california... so if a coach isnt happy they can go where ever they want... and i dont think there should be anything wrong with that. In the end its a job, and if kids follow them thats because they think he/she was a good coach... most of the time loyalty is to the coach and not the program unless you are at a power house gym... as we've seen many many times... but of course my perseptive is as a coach and an athlete not a parent.

I disagree and agree both. I think a coach should be able to go wherever they choose as well. As far as the athletes following them. This is not okay. Because it is the GYM that made it possible for this coach. It is the gym that provided the training. Also of course the parent/athlete are going to be closer to the coach because they work directly with the coach not the owner. I am sure if they worked directly with the owner they would have a bond as well. I think if your gym is doing what it takes they cheerleaders will not follow the coach unless it is more personal. I dont agree with the coaches gym hopping. It makes you wonder about the coaches. Why cant they find one place to call home? Most coaches that do alot of gym hopping are probably not good selections for coaches. Have you ever been on a job interview and they ask you how long you have been with your current employer. This says alot. It shows you are able to settle down and commit. Gym hoppers are usually problem people who cant stay one place for too long because they are problem makers. Here is a good indication that you are a gym hopper

You have been to more than 3 different cheer programs that are within 30 miles of each other. Bare in mind that these programs are still up and running and you did not switch gyms because of a gym closing.
If you have been to 3 or more gyms in the last 3-4 years you are a gym hopper.
If you tend to leave a gym and complain about the gym you left, you are a gym hopper.

I have highlighted a key statement in ACHAMP's comment. This is definitely a voilation in the business world. It is up to the previous owner to SALE that information to the next gym but ONLY after the client gives permission. Those clients gave permission to the previous gym to use for activities one gym not the next gym.

This goes for all star cheer, tumbling, stunt/camp students, alike, the previous gym collected the list not the new gym. Now, if the client were to walk into the new gym and complete a form and the form asked for phone number, email, etc then the new gym has the list.

All I can say is what was done was BAD business and it certainly does not make this new/merging gym look honest and they have an employee to thank for this and the sad thing is that the owner/partner is so new she/he doesn't really know yet.

Date: Fri Apr 4 5:42 AM, 2008

AChamp wrote:
if you agree that coaches should be able to go where they want, then so should the kids using the same principle... as a customer of a business if you are not geting the service or the results which you are paying for then you should go somewhere that is giving you those results... this includes the coaches you want. There is nothing illegal or wrong with that. Gyms are businesses NOT slave plantations, they dont own the kids

I totally agree with you. The coaches and kids should be allowed to make choices and walk into a gym freely. It's the type of recruiting that is being done by a certain coach that is the problem.

flipkidjudge · Senior Member

Just as cheereladers and parents gym hop, so do coaches. Just as parents and kids have their reasons (whether justified or not) so do coaches. However when a pattern develops...ie...kids who can't have their way at one gym over and over again always blaming it on the coaches, parents who if they can run the gym they will ruin the gym, or coaches leaving for the title and the money...it should be caveat emptor. Buyer beware.

Just as many gyms would be better off if they got rid of their "bad apples" on the cheer mat, they also need to get rid of bad apples on the coaching staff. I fully understand the short term pain and problems that brings, but the overall program will be better off in the long run.

Every coach should be well vetted before hiring. Too many coaches are just hired based on the strength of who they know and what they have produced in 2:30 sec. Check references until you are satisfied and even then monitor until you are confident that the new employee has caught your vision for your program...and is not just seeking a place to establish his/her vision without coming out of their pocket with the cost. If necessary possible, personally go to the other facilities and talk with the other bosses. (I know that is very difficult when we talk about cheer drama issues, but it is a logical business move)

Just because you were a great athlete means you will be a great coach. Therefore continued training is a must. After 28 years of teaching, I still try to find out how to do what I do better. Any coach that thinks they know it all is on their way out the door, no matter how long they have been teaching.

This one is difficult. If you have good staff....PAY THEM!!! While parents gripe about what they pay, most coaches gripe about what they are not paid. Here is a point of reference. After 3-4 years of volunteering, I started with my first paid job teaching gymnastics at $7.00an hour. I left that program to run another program to make $10.00 an hour. The year...1985. Many coaches do not make over $10.00 an hour today...over 20 years later. Many coaches work part time hours but they are on duty for the gym full time. The phone always rings. They are often required to work to come up with routines, mix music, counsel kids and parents, provide basic first aid, etc.

Even some of the more established and creative coaches do not make as much as the parents believe they make. Creative contracts that give control of what they create to the gym and not to themselves. So they may go choregraph (inside and outside) that. (That is a major reason why you have a lot of gym hopping coaches right there) They are trying to get paid for what they create. Being in the management side of it I fully understand their position. And when they try to protect their interests they are branded as being soley in it for the money.

Ethically speaking no coach should be trying to pull students away from a former place of employement. However that is an issue of the heart. While signing a non compete offers some measure of protection there are always loopholes. They can be very costly to enforce...and many gyms just do not have that kind of money to pay a lawyer to stop a former coach from recruting their kids or working for a competitior nearby. Second they can always be paid under the table. This happened to us recently as a coach started working under the table for a new gym and actively recruited his former privates and team kids to join him over at the new place. When threatened with a lawsuit, he simply scheduled appointments in the parking lot with parents to teach privates and the parents paid him directly. Thereby "legally" the gym was not involved with paying him so it was not a breach of the non compete.

I agree with Nicole. Sometimes you just have to walk away and do something further away for the common good and to keep the peace. That is not a non compete issue. That is a heart issue.

-- Edited by flipkidjudge at 07:32, 2008-04-04

flipkidjudge · Senior Member

Oh..and I was not speaking to the details of whatever or whoever you are talking about. Just musing in general. Thanks!

Date: Fri Apr 4 10:03 AM, 2008

What ever happened to giving and holding to your word? Seems like all these coaches looking for loopholes.

AChamp · Veteran Member

Anonymous wrote:

What ever happened to giving and holding to your word? Seems like all these coaches looking for loopholes.

what some of you people are STILL not getting is that all star cheer is NOT little leauge or AYSO or pop warner... these ARE NOT VOLUNTEERS they are paid professionals... good coaches are expensive because gyms compete to get them by making offers of higher salaries... for someone like me cheerleading is my CAREER and my only source of income... i mix music full time and run an all star gym as well as do choreography... i am paid VERY VERY WELL for this but if you are not getting paid what you should for what you do then you need to do what you gotta do to pay the bills... I have done this as well as MANY of my friends in the same situation. I dont know of ANYONE in any industry that would stay at a job under some of the same conditions... ITS NOT ABOUT LOYALTY OR "YOUR WORD" ITS ABOUT RESPECT AND APPRECIATION OF THE EMPLOYEE

AirborneOwner · GURU

Anonymous wrote:

What ever happened to giving and holding to your word? Seems like all these coaches looking for loopholes.

I agree that it is very important to fufill your commitment to the program that you coach at. Many programs as for a two year commitment when taking on a coaching job.

Date: Fri Apr 4 10:17 AM, 2008

AChamp wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

What ever happened to giving and holding to your word? Seems like all these coaches looking for loopholes.

what some of you people are STILL not getting is that all star cheer is NOT little leauge or AYSO or pop warner... these ARE NOT VOLUNTEERS they are paid professionals... good coaches are expensive because gyms compete to get them by making offers of higher salaries... for someone like me cheerleading is my CAREER and my only source of income... i mix music full time and run an all star gym as well as do choreography... i am paid VERY VERY WELL for this but if you are not getting paid what you should for what you do then you need to do what you gotta do to pay the bills... I have done this as well as MANY of my friends in the same situation. I dont know of ANYONE in any industry that would stay at a job under some of the same conditions... ITS NOT ABOUT LOYALTY OR "YOUR WORD" ITS ABOUT RESPECT AND APPRECIATION OF THE EMPLOYEE

Paying someone well is not respecting them. Respect is how you are treated day in and day out. Have worked at many gyms and been paid well, but that doesn't mean the respect was there. I think it is about loyalty, bottom line. I know of coaches who would never leave their gym until it closed their doors, and others who are one foot out of the door if another offer comes up. Its about values, bottom line.

AChamp · Veteran Member

Anonymous wrote:

AChamp wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

What ever happened to giving and holding to your word? Seems like all these coaches looking for loopholes.

what some of you people are STILL not getting is that all star cheer is NOT little leauge or AYSO or pop warner... these ARE NOT VOLUNTEERS they are paid professionals... good coaches are expensive because gyms compete to get them by making offers of higher salaries... for someone like me cheerleading is my CAREER and my only source of income... i mix music full time and run an all star gym as well as do choreography... i am paid VERY VERY WELL for this but if you are not getting paid what you should for what you do then you need to do what you gotta do to pay the bills... I have done this as well as MANY of my friends in the same situation. I dont know of ANYONE in any industry that would stay at a job under some of the same conditions... ITS NOT ABOUT LOYALTY OR "YOUR WORD" ITS ABOUT RESPECT AND APPRECIATION OF THE EMPLOYEE

Paying someone well is not respecting them. Respect is how you are treated day in and day out. Have worked at many gyms and been paid well, but that doesn't mean the respect was there. I think it is about loyalty, bottom line. I know of coaches who would never leave their gym until it closed their doors, and others who are one foot out of the door if another offer comes up. Its about values, bottom line.

im talking about respect as well as getting paid what you deserve... and LOYALTY IS EARNED by being respected as well as getting paid well... how can you be loyal if you dont have that... also thats fine if a coaches DECIDES to stay with a gym until it dies, thats their choice but like i said if this is your career sometimes you have to do what you have to do to pay the bills... values has nothing to do with that... i think you need to take up pop warner... im not trying to fight with people IM SIMPLY STATING THE FACTS AS SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN IN THE SITUATION AND HAS ALL STAR CHEER AS THEIR CAREER... i know what im talking about

Date: Fri Apr 4 12:32 PM, 2008

Well I can certainly respect your wanting to further your career, and that is great.

But for arguments sake lets use an example that recently happened in the Valley (No Names!)

Coach A & B work for gym A. They decide to leave for various reasons. A year later Coach A & B together, start up their own gym. Coach A & B collectively use resources (Email lists & Phone lists) that were only accessible to them by working for gym A to recruit kids to their meeting for their new gym. Should they have the right to use those emails & phone numbers of the kids/parents at Gym A for their new gym? The only way they would have had access to those resources is working for gym A. I think not! I would have expected better from those coaches.

Disappointed

Date: Fri Apr 4 12:34 PM, 2008

AS a parent of a cheerleader I would be upset if my daughter was recruited in such a way. That is just WRONG!!!

AChamp · Veteran Member

Anonymous wrote:

Well I can certainly respect your wanting to further your career, and that is great.
But for arguments sake lets use an example that recently happened in the Valley (No Names!)
Coach A & B work for gym A. They decide to leave for various reasons. A year later Coach A & B together, start up their own gym. Coach A & B collectively use resources (Email lists & Phone lists) that were only accessible to them by working for gym A to recruit kids to their meeting for their new gym. Should they have the right to use those emails & phone numbers of the kids/parents at Gym A for their new gym? The only way they would have had access to those resources is working for gym A. I think not! I would have expected better from those coaches.
Disappointed

thats actually illegal... when i left my old gym i never contacted anyone of the kids or parents... they knew where i was going and many of them followed.

Date: Fri Apr 4 12:52 PM, 2008

What if you're personal friends with those parents? What if you have gone to funtions with them outside the gym and maintain a relationship after you left? Yes you wouldn't have met them without gym A but are you saying that you cuts all ties because you are not with gym A?