Spirit Sports webcast

Date: Wed Feb 13 8:05 PM, 2008

RE: Spirit Sports webcast

Date: Wed Feb 13 8:33 PM, 2008

I loved both routines, they were very entertaining.

Date: Wed Feb 13 9:18 PM, 2008

WOW, I THOUGHT THE ARIZONA TEAMS WERE AMAZING. WOW!

Date: Thu Feb 14 12:08 AM, 2008

again so why did CA coed not get a paid bid??

they dropped a stunt that may have hurt them, but their stunt section looks like two stunts back to back. who else had 11 stunts thrown twice?

flipkidjudge · Senior Member

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

is it possible there is a certain order of placement they have in mind, and so they just adjust the scores accordingly to get there?

That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. If that was the case we would all catch on to that.

It is not really that ridiculous. You see all the teams and you come up with the placements they deserve relative to the other performances. I'm just thinking maybe adjustments are made after the judges have seen all of them. That is not the same as saying you have placements in mind before they even perform.

I would hope that just random placements do not happen. But I do know that some judges already have in their mind who they think should win before the competition is even over. I also have seen cases where friendships and collusion switched places around regardless of the scores.

****Warning...Warning*** rant coming on****Rant coming on***

A few years ago we went to an event (Not Spirit Sports..that is another rant for another day)with all of our teams..I think 5 or 6 at that time. We won every division leading upto the last division. We hit our routine and the other team did not. When awards were announced we were announced in second. The entire gym of spectators (a packed gym) were in shock. Since there really is no appeal process in cheerleading there was nothing we could do but express our disagreement with the results. We were branded sore losers because just one of our teams lost and we were upset.

However we were informed immed after by a judge (who I think no longer works for that company) that we had won that division as well on the score sheets. The comp director when she got the sheets told them point blank that our team will not win that division and "compelled" a change in score. Now the business dymanics at that time were very interesting. The comp director was very good friends with the owners of the team that won; she owned a gym at the time as well there was friction because our gym was literally competing for the same business as her gym was; she had begged to do our chorography but we never used her for that choosing to do it ourselves. But the biggest thing IMHO was this was our first year going as an advanced Team. And that had been the marketing strategy of all the other gyms in the area against us was well they are okay, but they don't have any advanced teams. So if you are a level 4 or 5 don't go there. Now here we were competing with a first year Level 5 team, jumping from level 3.

Now I wish I could tell you that once we got that information and had it confirmed by another judge that we left it alone. We did not and we still suffer to this day for what we did. We publicaly questioned their judging by posting videos of both teams. However what most outsiders who were looking in did not know is what we did was directed only at the comp company and not the team that did win. We had information that they did not, plus we knew the background dynamics that others had either no clue about or did not want to speak of openly. We did not feel the kids should have been "punished" because adults did not get along.

We have not gone back to that comp since, even though asked to go and slammed by other programs as being scared to go compete against certain teams. Why take your kids somewhere where you know they won't be judged fairly?

So does it happen? Yes. The thing is most people do not speak of it, or they don't have enough eveidence to prove it. And if this was the only time I could say it happened to us, I would not of even posted it.

-- Edited by flipkidjudge at 05:15, 2008-02-14

Date: Thu Feb 14 6:06 AM, 2008

I am not saying I agree or disagree with the placements this past weekend, however, I have been witness to something similar....About 2 years ago the youth program who practices in my gym during the rainy months went to their leagues national competition. They hit a flawless routine and placed third. The first place team well deserved the championship, but the second place team dropped 3 stunts and had touch downs on at least 2 of their tumbling passes. The coach who was VERY upset called me and told me the scores and placements on 2 of her score sheets looked as if they had been erased and rewritten. I told her there was no harm in having someone look at it. When she confronted a staff member about it. The response was that the judges could choose to change the scores once the division was over if they felt the placements were not how they wanted them to be. For example if the judges felt Team A was better than Team B, but somehow Team B ended up scoring better. They could go back and change the scores on the teams so Team A would beat Team B. Once the team returned home I watched the video and in my opinion it was very obvious they should have received second. I am not sure why the scores were changed, but this organization admits to changing scores to make the placement outcome how they wanted them to be weather it be playing favorites or not.

Needless to say this team changed leagues to a more professional well known league and has been happy since. But if this one youth league does it, does that mean it might happen elsewhere???

Date: Thu Feb 14 7:19 AM, 2008

Anonymous wrote:

again so why did CA coed not get a paid bid??

they dropped a stunt that may have hurt them, but their stunt section looks like two stunts back to back. who else had 11 stunts thrown twice?

Maybe that is your answer. A Large Coed Squad is expected to puty up 12 stunts. It looks weaker if they dont. Like when a small senior team only puts up 4 stunts. it just looks different. Maybe that is why they did not score so well. Just an opionion

Date: Thu Feb 14 7:27 AM, 2008

People, Cant we move on. Yes Cali Lg Coed is a great team and has a great routine but on day two they did not hit. There were a few mistakes and when the competition is so close you can not have even one mistake. We should give credit to Desert Storm. They looked very strong and had a clean routine that hit. Even though they are not one of my favorites after watching them both days I knew they would be right up there for the bid. Lets just face it, they were cleaner and still had hard dificulty. I am sure Cali will get a paid bid and do very well at Worlds.

Date: Thu Feb 14 7:28 AM, 2008

not true at all..look at the score sheets..11 stunts with inversions tossed to the stop still puts you in the 10 range for stunts...12 is not a requirement.

LadyW · Senior Member

Wow -- I had heard this happens here and there -- but I guess my naiveté prevented me from actually thinking in this day and age that it continues. Wow -- I know in the ice skating end (not the big comps, the little ones) it is very political and "who you know" and who your coach is affects you scores and placements. Even in the studio dance end -- if your a "well known" studio you are always scored higher, even if a girl falls on her b*tt. I guess subjective jugding and polictics will always be a factor no matter where and what we do.

Its too bad really. I guess we need to ask ourselves -- how can it change? Remove the "wow" factor scores, the subjective chorographys scores. Look at only elements - I don't know -- its the behind the scenes stuff nobody will really know.

All we can do is say -- Hey you guys did the best you can -- As long as you did your personal best and had fun doing thats all that matters. One compeition and 1 set of scores does not make or break a season.

Date: Thu Feb 14 9:30 AM, 2008

So if judges can choose to change the scores (erase, rewrite) if they don't like the placements after the original scores, that should be in writing somewhere, right? Is there anything in writing describing what the judges can and cannot do?

The only solution as far as I can tell is to stop attending competitions where practices such as this are occurring. Unfortunately others may see it as sour grapes, but eventually other gyms will do the same and changes will have to be made if the competition company wants to stay in business. Other than that I see no other way to hold judges accountable. I know for a fact a coach from our gym years ago judged a competition we did not attend, and it was to our gym's advantage to give a particular gym low scores when possible because we compete against that gym for business. Really, how can judges be totally objective and put everything aside in situations like that? And it's not always blatant and obvious, just a point under here and there, which in a close race is just enough to make a difference in the outcome. What I have found is that our teams tend to score better at National competitions outside of our area, where you have judges from throughout the country. Just more thoughts on this.

Date: Thu Feb 14 9:42 AM, 2008

Spirit Sports made it very clear in the coaches meeting Friday night that all of the judges came from the East coast. The judges had no buy in to have a particular team win.

Date: Thu Feb 14 10:41 AM, 2008

Anonymous wrote:

not true at all..look at the score sheets..11 stunts with inversions tossed to the stop still puts you in the 10 range for stunts...12 is not a requirement.

Sure but if all of the other large coeds are doing 11, it looks like a weakness. It is expected. cali will be the ONLY coed team this week at NCA putting up ONLY 11 stunts. That is a weakness. It just looks odd is all. Not saying that you will not maxed out the score sheet, but if the other teams are doing more and similiar tricks, then the scores will represent that. The "side summies" that they do in the routine I think would score higher points if the transition was not so long. Seems super slow and cautious.

Date: Thu Feb 14 10:51 AM, 2008

Desert Storm's last pass dumped bad on Sunday...can't understand how that wasn't taken into account.

Date: Thu Feb 14 12:43 PM, 2008

Do all teams make their routines more difficult befor going to NCA or Cheersport? Do you think there's any chance that CA was holding back? I would like to hope that they'll set their sights on top 5 like they posted they did last year for NCA / worlds and come out within that range or better. smile

Date: Thu Feb 14 1:24 PM, 2008

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

not true at all..look at the score sheets..11 stunts with inversions tossed to the stop still puts you in the 10 range for stunts...12 is not a requirement.

Sure but if all of the other large coeds are doing 11, it looks like a weakness. It is expected. cali will be the ONLY coed team this week at NCA putting up ONLY 11 stunts. That is a weakness. It just looks odd is all. Not saying that you will not maxed out the score sheet, but if the other teams are doing more and similiar tricks, then the scores will represent that. The "side summies" that they do in the routine I think would score higher points if the transition was not so long. Seems super slow and cautious.

they may be the only large coed team putting up 11 stunts but we have to admit that those 11 stunts are very clean and sharp...and we have seen it. day 2 was kinda sad when they dropped but those 11 stunts are solid!! compared to wildcats, stingrays, and tg...there 12 arent solid (JMO) watch the videos. stingrays are doing 12 all girl full-ups the center fumbles around and back center dropped not to mention they were SLOPPY. Just understand that cleanliness and execution is a big factor and i think cali coed is clean and executes very well. also, they are doing 2 stunt sections. bow n arrow d.d then side sumi, power press scorp scale d.d and those arabesque walk overs in the front. VERY CREATIVE!!

Date: Thu Feb 14 1:39 PM, 2008

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

not true at all..look at the score sheets..11 stunts with inversions tossed to the stop still puts you in the 10 range for stunts...12 is not a requirement.

Sure but if all of the other large coeds are doing 11, it looks like a weakness. It is expected. cali will be the ONLY coed team this week at NCA putting up ONLY 11 stunts. That is a weakness. It just looks odd is all. Not saying that you will not maxed out the score sheet, but if the other teams are doing more and similiar tricks, then the scores will represent that. The "side summies" that they do in the routine I think would score higher points if the transition was not so long. Seems super slow and cautious.

they may be the only large coed team putting up 11 stunts but we have to admit that those 11 stunts are very clean and sharp...and we have seen it. day 2 was kinda sad when they dropped but those 11 stunts are solid!! compared to wildcats, stingrays, and tg...there 12 arent solid (JMO) watch the videos. stingrays are doing 12 all girl full-ups the center fumbles around and back center dropped not to mention they were SLOPPY. Just understand that cleanliness and execution is a big factor and i think cali coed is clean and executes very well. also, they are doing 2 stunt sections. bow n arrow d.d then side sumi, power press scorp scale d.d and those arabesque walk overs in the front. VERY CREATIVE!!
The problem is that 11 stunts might even be too much for them. They dropped in Vegas and also dropped in Palm Springs. Maybe they should go back to 10 like they had in the beginning of the year.

Date: Thu Feb 14 4:22 PM, 2008

what is all this erasure mark talk the score sheets and comments were all typed at spirit sports and the integrity of that competition should not be in question at all. James Speed has a very close personal relationship with CA staff and still it came down to score/deductions. Anyways CA wlll kick butt this weekend good luck to all represent cali well!

Date: Thu Feb 14 8:39 PM, 2008

I think you kind of go into the comp knowing that close relationship between CA and Spirit Sport. Their athletes will even tell you that they talk about it in their gym. That is not to say that SS is not fair because I think that it was. To deny the relationship is a little naive

Date: Thu Feb 14 8:44 PM, 2008

Anonymous wrote:

I think you kind of go into the comp knowing that close relationship between CA and Spirit Sport. Their athletes will even tell you that they talk about it in their gym. That is not to say that SS is not fair because I think that it was. To deny the relationship is a little naive

I agree...it was very obvious even in the way thier teams were announced weirdface