Athletic Championships?

Date: Wed Jan 2 8:03 AM, 2008

RE: Athletic Championships?

Date: Wed Jan 2 11:11 AM, 2008

I coach a small senior coed 3 team. Depending on the competition, we'll go either Senior Coed or Senior open.

I think its kind of a wash as far as advantages and disadvantages. Of course, hitting stunts with younger fliers can be easier, but senior aged kids on the floor just have a different presence about them.

What I'm far more conerned about, and what typically makes the decision for me is competition. My customers pay to compete. I want to put them in a division where they have competition. Many times, when I'm registering teams I'll be calling the comp companies to see where the competition will be. If its in coed, then we'll go coed. If its open, we'll go open.

Date: Wed Jan 2 11:37 AM, 2008

Anonymous wrote:

I coach a small senior coed 3 team. Depending on the competition, we'll go either Senior Coed or Senior open.

I think its kind of a wash as far as advantages and disadvantages. Of course, hitting stunts with younger fliers can be easier, but senior aged kids on the floor just have a different presence about them.

What I'm far more conerned about, and what typically makes the decision for me is competition. My customers pay to compete. I want to put them in a division where they have competition. Many times, when I'm registering teams I'll be calling the comp companies to see where the competition will be. If its in coed, then we'll go coed. If its open, we'll go open.

This makes perfect sense to me. We've seen little to no competition in these open divisions and I would think those teams would welcome competition from the divisions that are not open but are the same level and basically the same age group (minus the one or two who are not under 10).

Date: Wed Jan 2 11:58 AM, 2008

I personally think the open division was created for small gyms who dont have enough members to make up a true senior team and teams that are true senior teams that move into the open division have a huge advantage over the open level teams. i understand a gym with an open squad moving up or down a level to comepete against anothe ropen team. But for a senior level to compete against and open team is unfair.
Let me state I am against all these different divisions, but it was created for specific reasons like the one i mentioned above.
We all know that having younger team members on a senior squad is not necessarily an advantage for open teams.

If those teams that are true snior teams want to compete, then why not move them up a level. I believe POWER did this at GSSA.
They moved a senior "OPEN" level three up to a senior "OPEN"level four
not their senior four team to a senior open team who would handsdown have a great advantage over an open team.

Just a question? why not stay in your division and move that way instead of trying to compete outside of your division. Just another way to look at things?

and until they change the rules and apply them all across the board. all these divisions and so many competitions, this discussion will remain at the foreforont of every comp. There will never be enough squads competing especially senior teams.
personally levels are great it allows gyms to be competitive and not compete unsafe anymore befor their ready. But the open divisions bring way too much.
Just say in order to compete on seniors you have to be 12 and up and leave it like that!
MY OPIONON ONLY

Date: Wed Jan 2 12:41 PM, 2008

Anonymous wrote:

I personally think the open division was created for small gyms who dont have enough members to make up a true senior team and teams that are true senior teams that move into the open division have a huge advantage over the open level teams. i understand a gym with an open squad moving up or down a level to comepete against anothe ropen team. But for a senior level to compete against and open team is unfair.
Let me state I am against all these different divisions, but it was created for specific reasons like the one i mentioned above.
We all know that having younger team members on a senior squad is not necessarily an advantage for open teams.

If those teams that are true snior teams want to compete, then why not move them up a level. I believe POWER did this at GSSA.
They moved a senior "OPEN" level three up to a senior "OPEN"level four
not their senior four team to a senior open team who would handsdown have a great advantage over an open team.

Just a question? why not stay in your division and move that way instead of trying to compete outside of your division. Just another way to look at things?

and until they change the rules and apply them all across the board. all these divisions and so many competitions, this discussion will remain at the foreforont of every comp. There will never be enough squads competing especially senior teams.
personally levels are great it allows gyms to be competitive and not compete unsafe anymore befor their ready. But the open divisions bring way too much.
Just say in order to compete on seniors you have to be 12 and up and leave it like that!
MY OPIONON ONLY

Agreed, Open divsions should be left open to small gyms. Meaning 80 members or less in their all star program, possibly even smaller than that.

Date: Wed Jan 2 1:03 PM, 2008

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I personally think the open division was created for small gyms who dont have enough members to make up a true senior team and teams that are true senior teams that move into the open division have a huge advantage over the open level teams. i understand a gym with an open squad moving up or down a level to comepete against anothe ropen team. But for a senior level to compete against and open team is unfair.
Let me state I am against all these different divisions, but it was created for specific reasons like the one i mentioned above.
We all know that having younger team members on a senior squad is not necessarily an advantage for open teams.

If those teams that are true snior teams want to compete, then why not move them up a level. I believe POWER did this at GSSA.
They moved a senior "OPEN" level three up to a senior "OPEN"level four
not their senior four team to a senior open team who would handsdown have a great advantage over an open team.

Just a question? why not stay in your division and move that way instead of trying to compete outside of your division. Just another way to look at things?

and until they change the rules and apply them all across the board. all these divisions and so many competitions, this discussion will remain at the foreforont of every comp. There will never be enough squads competing especially senior teams.
personally levels are great it allows gyms to be competitive and not compete unsafe anymore befor their ready. But the open divisions bring way too much.
Just say in order to compete on seniors you have to be 12 and up and leave it like that!
MY OPIONON ONLY

Agreed, Open divsions should be left open to small gyms. Meaning 80 members or less in their all star program, possibly even smaller than that.

But what if the teams who would like to move into open so they have competition are also small gyms? If the open divisions were intended for small gyms, it shouldn't make a difference if other small gyms join in the competition, open or not open. Most of the gyms in the bay area are small (80 members or less).

Date: Wed Jan 2 1:12 PM, 2008

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I personally think the open division was created for small gyms who dont have enough members to make up a true senior team and teams that are true senior teams that move into the open division have a huge advantage over the open level teams. i understand a gym with an open squad moving up or down a level to comepete against anothe ropen team. But for a senior level to compete against and open team is unfair.
Let me state I am against all these different divisions, but it was created for specific reasons like the one i mentioned above.
We all know that having younger team members on a senior squad is not necessarily an advantage for open teams.

If those teams that are true snior teams want to compete, then why not move them up a level. I believe POWER did this at GSSA.
They moved a senior "OPEN" level three up to a senior "OPEN"level four
not their senior four team to a senior open team who would handsdown have a great advantage over an open team.

Just a question? why not stay in your division and move that way instead of trying to compete outside of your division. Just another way to look at things?

and until they change the rules and apply them all across the board. all these divisions and so many competitions, this discussion will remain at the foreforont of every comp. There will never be enough squads competing especially senior teams.
personally levels are great it allows gyms to be competitive and not compete unsafe anymore befor their ready. But the open divisions bring way too much.
Just say in order to compete on seniors you have to be 12 and up and leave it like that!
MY OPIONON ONLY

Agreed, Open divsions should be left open to small gyms. Meaning 80 members or less in their all star program, possibly even smaller than that.

But what if the teams who would like to move into open so they have competition are also small gyms? If the open divisions were intended for small gyms, it shouldn't make a difference if other small gyms join in the competition, open or not open. Most of the gyms in the bay area are small (80 members or less).

Yes even smaller than 80 members or less!! the division is there for fair competition and when true senior teams move into open divisions it is not a fair competition period. agree that too many divisions etc but those are the rules

i wouldn't get any glory or satisfaction as a senior team beating an open senior team. that is somewhat cheating(and i only use that word because i cant think of another to use)

i do have to give props to power whose open level 3 went level 4 open and won

now that is fair because they moved up not down to dominate
senior open teams are at a disadvantage already and it is completly wrong to put a true senior team in an open division.
IMO

Date: Wed Jan 2 1:12 PM, 2008

Anonymous wrote:
Just a question? why not stay in your division and move that way instead of trying to compete outside of your division. Just another way to look at things?

There is a big difference between moving to an open division for competition and moving up a level. As someone else said, if you are also a small gym, there is very little difference between regular and open.

Date: Wed Jan 2 1:17 PM, 2008

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Just a question? why not stay in your division and move that way instead of trying to compete outside of your division. Just another way to look at things?

There is a big difference between moving to an open division for competition and moving up a level. As someone else said, if you are also a small gym, there is very little difference between regular and open.

We are an open team because one member is underage. We would rather have competition than none, there is no glory to win 1st place going against nobody. One member should not make a difference and it would be fine if we went against a team that didn't have anyone underage. If we had more than one I could understand there might be a disadvantage, but that is also questionable.

Date: Wed Jan 2 1:23 PM, 2008

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I personally think the open division was created for small gyms who dont have enough members to make up a true senior team and teams that are true senior teams that move into the open division have a huge advantage over the open level teams. i understand a gym with an open squad moving up or down a level to comepete against anothe ropen team. But for a senior level to compete against and open team is unfair.
Let me state I am against all these different divisions, but it was created for specific reasons like the one i mentioned above.
We all know that having younger team members on a senior squad is not necessarily an advantage for open teams.

If those teams that are true snior teams want to compete, then why not move them up a level. I believe POWER did this at GSSA.
They moved a senior "OPEN" level three up to a senior "OPEN"level four
not their senior four team to a senior open team who would handsdown have a great advantage over an open team.

Just a question? why not stay in your division and move that way instead of trying to compete outside of your division. Just another way to look at things?

and until they change the rules and apply them all across the board. all these divisions and so many competitions, this discussion will remain at the foreforont of every comp. There will never be enough squads competing especially senior teams.
personally levels are great it allows gyms to be competitive and not compete unsafe anymore befor their ready. But the open divisions bring way too much.
Just say in order to compete on seniors you have to be 12 and up and leave it like that!
MY OPIONON ONLY

Agreed, Open divsions should be left open to small gyms. Meaning 80 members or less in their all star program, possibly even smaller than that.

But what if the teams who would like to move into open so they have competition are also small gyms? If the open divisions were intended for small gyms, it shouldn't make a difference if other small gyms join in the competition, open or not open. Most of the gyms in the bay area are small (80 members or less).

Yes even smaller than 80 members or less!! the division is there for fair competition and when true senior teams move into open divisions it is not a fair competition period. agree that too many divisions etc but those are the rules

i wouldn't get any glory or satisfaction as a senior team beating an open senior team. that is somewhat cheating(and i only use that word because i cant think of another to use)

i do have to give props to power whose open level 3 went level 4 open and won
now that is fair because they moved up not down to dominate
senior open teams are at a disadvantage already and it is completly wrong to put a true senior team in an open division.
IMO

ok this is how i see it....

you have a senior with a couple of eight year olds going against a team with girls 12/14 and up. we all know that when you look at that taem with the little girls, it doesnt quite look right. lets be honest here
so as a judge you see these two teams and who do you think looks stonger etc. The team with the older girls. They just have a presence about them that is different form a team with younger girls. I would have to judge a little harder for the true open team just because in the back of my mind i am thinkiing ok it should be easy and simple for them to get those little girls up. Oor even forgive the true senior team for not executing a tsunt, because they have it harder than the open team.

so looking at it from that stand point senior teams should compete senior level and open teams should compete open.

it is just not a fair competition to me. Now if they change the rules to say that they will only have senior teams with different levels and no open division. then it is the gyms choice to have a senior team with younger girls on the squad. in every sport there are rules about age and cheerleading seems to be the only one that cant stick to those age rules. dance teams dont have open dance. if you have an 8 year old on your senior dance squad well then that is your choice etc
but since we have the rules set then senior teams have no business competing against senior open teams. why cant this sport just follow rules too. why is it the open teams fault that the cheer rule people make these crappy divisions. its just not right considering the reason for the division

Date: Wed Jan 2 1:24 PM, 2008

Fortunately I can only think of one competition where the open divisions had no competition; I think most have at least one other team?

Date: Wed Jan 2 1:26 PM, 2008

Anonymous wrote:

Fortunately I can only think of one competition where the open divisions had no competition; I think most have at least one other team?

I agree,
yes this discusion is based on who has posted teams that are going. they haven even put out a schedule yet you just never know how many teams will be in that division

Date: Wed Jan 2 1:49 PM, 2008

Honestly, it comes down to priorities for coaches. I'm the coach who goes into either senior coed or senior open. We're a small gym. Under 50 kids. This senior team is not full. 18 members. There is no "good" division for us as all the coed divisions allow up to 36 members.

However, I believe that the "right" thing to do, as a coach, is to keep kids on an age-appropriate team and not work to fill the team. So I don't let youth-aged kids on that team. However, I'm also competing with less people. So which is worse, having a smaller team or having younger kids on a team? Both are disadvantages. Pick your poison, I guess.

I do move my kids up a level when there is no competition in their level. But if there is another available division in a level where they feel more comfortable and competitive, why should I not compete them there?

Date: Wed Jan 2 1:52 PM, 2008

Anonymous wrote:

Fortunately I can only think of one competition where the open divisions had no competition; I think most have at least one other team?

How lucky! We've been to two comps so far and both had at least one open division with only one team.

Then again, my part of the country is a little further behind some others and only now "warming up" to allstar cheer.

Date: Wed Jan 2 2:20 PM, 2008

Anonymous wrote:

Honestly, it comes down to priorities for coaches. I'm the coach who goes into either senior coed or senior open. We're a small gym. Under 50 kids. This senior team is not full. 18 members. There is no "good" division for us as all the coed divisions allow up to 36 members.

However, I believe that the "right" thing to do, as a coach, is to keep kids on an age-appropriate team and not work to fill the team. So I don't let youth-aged kids on that team. However, I'm also competing with less people. So which is worse, having a smaller team or having younger kids on a team? Both are disadvantages. Pick your poison, I guess.

I do move my kids up a level when there is no competition in their level. But if there is another available division in a level where they feel more comfortable and competitive, why should I not compete them there?

I have to agree with this. Also if the open divisions were intended for small gyms, would you consider Power a small gym? There really is little difference between standard divisions and open, unless half the team are underage which is usually not the case. I see nothing wrong with moving your team into open if that is where they feel more comfortable and competitive, it is not an unfair advantage. Large gyms in open divisions? That may be where the unfairness kicks in.

Date: Wed Jan 2 5:03 PM, 2008

I was the one who posted i think it is unfair to put a true senior team in to an open senior team. I see both sides now thank you very much. I do have to say I am not a fan of open teams simply because it allows for gyms to put younger kids on a squad that should be for 7th grade and up or 12 and up. I think it looks ridiculous but i also can sympathize with the gyms that do nothave enough members to have a senior team. I guess the best thing would be to eliminate open division all together and gyms will just have to have true senior teams
Thank you for showing both sides to the arguement and thank you for doing it kindly...

now thats the way you have a debate without being so negative they close the topic

Date: Wed Jan 2 5:37 PM, 2008

This is like the 3rd thread about the open division. People GET OVER IT!!! Seriously there is more to talk about than this 1 particular division. Obviously the NACCC and USASF made it for a reason. There are many gyms who can't field a 12 and older senior team, so they offer it. So what if you don't compete against someone for 1 competition. The whole point of competing is to get ready for Nationals. All these little random regionals and championships are to get ready for the big show at the end of the season. So many of you guys are so about today and not long term. Correct me if I'm wrong but every competition in Nor Cal has had some type of grand championship round or score, so work for that.

Date: Wed Jan 2 5:51 PM, 2008

i agreed. this has been discussed again and again. the division is offered and this allows teams to field a senior open team whether it be at levels 2, 3, 4. if the rules are adjusted next season then and only then will teams restructure their teams. small gyms love this category, it allows the cheerleaders to gain skills at the senior category and probably the next level as well. that's really cool when you look at the bigger picture.

Date: Wed Jan 2 5:52 PM, 2008

Anonymous wrote:

This is like the 3rd thread about the open division. People GET OVER IT!!! Seriously there is more to talk about than this 1 particular division. Obviously the NACCC and USASF made it for a reason. There are many gyms who can't field a 12 and older senior team, so they offer it. So what if you don't compete against someone for 1 competition. The whole point of competing is to get ready for Nationals. All these little random regionals and championships are to get ready for the big show at the end of the season. So many of you guys are so about today and not long term. Correct me if I'm wrong but every competition in Nor Cal has had some type of grand championship round or score, so work for that.

So much for the discussion not turning negative. I can't figure out why people who are not interested in a particular topic don't just ignore it. The original post was a question about teams that aren't in an open division competing in an open division to make things interesting, to have some competition (you know, competition? what we pay for?) There were good points brought up by both sides and everything seemed civil, until... Oh well, it was good while it lasted.

Date: Wed Jan 2 5:54 PM, 2008

Anonymous wrote:

i agreed. this has been discussed again and again. the division is offered and this allows teams to field a senior open team whether it be at levels 2, 3, 4. if the rules are adjusted next season then and only then will teams restructure their teams. small gyms love this category, it allows the cheerleaders to gain skills at the senior category and probably the next level as well. that's really cool when you look at the bigger picture.

Apparently big gyms love this category too, which sort of defeats the purpose?