Is this Professional and ethical behavior?

Date: Mon Nov 26 11:41 AM, 2007

RE: Is this Professional and ethical behavior?

Danny · Senior Member

Hey Anonymous 11:41am.....cheergyms.com is hiring ; -)

OC Mom · GURU

We have an all star gym coaching at our high school and it does NOT conflict with the all star program in any way, shape or form. But with that said, that is also because our cheer director who is a staff member and teacher at the school has an all star cheerleader daughter. She understands completely the needs of the all star cheerleader and so we do not have conflicts. We have MANY girls on all level of high school cheer AND pom who participate in all star cheer and dance. Having an all star coach is exactly WHY it works. The coaches, directors and staff sit down, go over the competition schedule with the all star schedule in hand and FIGURE IT OUT.

I also have to say, high school cheer is by no means "cheap"-er than all stars. Yes, it's cheaper but it's not cheap. Neither are any of the other sports. BUT THE MAIN DIFFERENCE HERE IS, the other sports are considered "sports" and are sanctioned by the school district. Cheer is not, monitary wise. If your child participates in cheer, competitive or not, you pay.

We had a seperate competition team last season. That did not work out. We had girls on "sideline" cheer, the competition team AND all stars. Their choice of course, but this was a huge commitment. Trust me, I know first hand. No, there wasn't a conflict of practices. BUT there was way more commitment. So this was the way it was handled.... ONLY Varsity cheer is the competition team. Everyone tries out equally for each team (not including freshman who can not try out for Varsity) The top 20 scores make Varsity, the second 20 make JV UNLESS you state that you do NOT want to compete. Then you are moved to JV who does not compete.

Football, which is HUGE HUGE HUGE here does not offer this. Baseball, basketball, volleyball, swimming, water polo, etc... do not offer this. When your child trys out for a team, you already know there will be money to be spent. And you also know your child may not make the team. Just because you can't afford it doesn't mean you don't pay. It means you work your tail off to raise the funds. None of the sports are a free ride. Sorry. None of them. But having an all star gym help coach the team is not a conflict of interest. The coaches have to hold the same values, rules and more that the other coaches in the school do. Even more so than their all star gym. They have people from the school district watching over them

I would have my daughter coached by an all star coach over a science teacher who was a cheerleader in high school ANY DAY. As a matter of fact, growing up, I told her she would NOT cheer in school. She wanted to cheer in Jr High but we watched them at a rally before tryouts and my daughter walked out in the middle of it and said, "NO WAY MOM. NO WAY." The ONLY reason she is cheering in high school is BECAUSE of the coaches.

Oh it can work, but so many people just don't make the effort. And a good coach would NEVER EVER EVER treat his own all star kids better than another all star gyms kid. That is just plain WRONG. And I thank my lucky stars that this does not happen with our girls. As a matter of fact, the girls from the other gym run around our all star gym like they live there. And they do..... they are family.

-- Edited by OC Mom at 12:05, 2007-11-26

OC Mom · GURU

Danny is caught recruiting!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do you guys see it up there??? lmao lmao lmao

Date: Mon Nov 26 12:33 PM, 2007

I'm glad that the school your daughter attends has such a wonderful program. Unfortunately not every school does. Our High School had an All Star coach that was asked to leave at the end of last year. Parents had gone to the Principle and the Atheletic Director with numerous complaints. We were hoping that things would change, but all they did was hire one of the other coaches from the same gym, so the drama continues.

Date: Mon Nov 26 12:39 PM, 2007

Anonymous wrote:

from the original post...here are my thoughts.

All-star is a business, we all agree on that. I think the more young ladies involved in cheer the better, no matter what level. Keeping kids healthy, active and involved in goals the better. Some people don't like all-star cheer, which is fine. SO there are other options, hs and youth. Exact flip side for those that don't like youth or HS, all-star is available. Now, for gyms training youth, i think you need to set the guidelines ahead of time before you recruit a gym.
You are giving them business and will give them continued business if they do what you have hired them too. If your girls want to leave the youth program becuase they find they like that better, then my opinion is they are not getting what they want with your youth program. Why hold a child back if they are that into it....If your youth program needs to offer more, get the training get the coaches and coaching. Attend seminars, attend everything to make your program so awesome they won't want to leave.

in my experience, the youth organizations that complain that they can't compete at a higher level don't have the ability to train at that higher level.
DOn't let it become your excuse. Just becuase your not paid does not mean you can't give youth anything and everything that is out there. Before you jump down my throat, I'm in the youth programs. I attend as much as i can every year, i watch listen and read anything i can get my hands on. I hear it every year, tired of the excuses and then everyone wants to know why they leave youth and go all-star. Everyone knows....your in cheer beucase you love it, not for the money!!!!

In the town I reside, there are several youth programs that have cheerleaders that represent their football youth teams through the competition season. The football youth cheer programs are just as serious about the competitive seasons as the all-star teams. Just my opinion - I really do believe these volunteered ogranizations have lost the focus of WHY they are cheering in the first place. They have taking the cheerleading support of football and have turned into competition teams. Now there is nothing wrong with this, but these organizations are being instructed by volunteers (old and young) that do not have the knowledge/training to be successful with out some type of outside assistance.

The volunteer coaches ask for the parents to pay for gym rental, team stunting classes, half-time routines, etc. These coaches do this because each youth team wants to outdo the next. So, the coaches turn to the all-star camps.

The all-star coaches give their expertise to these clubs year after year with little recognition. Many of these youth organization now have a confidence of success because of these hires. Without this security blanket the youth teams would have to go back to the basics and nothing more.   If these allstar clubs turned away their business the teams wouldn't be ask nearly successful as they are today.

The youth volunteers would not know what to do...I know this because I was a volunteered coach at one time and it was extremely difficult to step in this role with absolutely no knowledge and have the demands to win placed upon you the minute you say okay to coaching.

The girls (with their parents watching) attend these all-star camps and enjoy the interaction with the all-star staff.   The girls realize (allong with their parents) that these are people that know their _hit. These are the people that are teaching proper techique. The kids leave the camps with more knowledge for cheer then they gain the either year with the volunteers. The parents and girls realize that maybe they should join an all-star team to recieve this type of training at every practice, instead of just a couple times a year. After all they are already paying for 5 or more competitions, the travel that goes with the competitions, the stunt camps, tumbling training, half-time routines, entry fees for the football games, etc. (there really isn't that much of a cost saving when you are on these youth teams.

I don't blame them. I did take the leap into the All-Star scene many years ago.  My daughter has excelled in a sport she loves. She is far more talented because of all-stars. I am glad I made the change and would never turn back to youth again.

- There is just no comparision -

Date: Mon Nov 26 12:55 PM, 2007

unfortuatly there are MANY youth programs that have no idea or clue what they are doing!!! I want to jump out of my seat when i see such improper stunting it kills me! I just watched a sac youth organization set requirements that they "had" to have in there routine! CRAZY CRAZY CRAZY!

But...there are a select number of youth teams in n.cali that DO know what they are doing....folsom, Granite Bay, Oak Ridge. They have proper coaching and know what is going on in the industry.

Date: Mon Nov 26 1:11 PM, 2007

I dont know about the others but Oak Ridge will NOT let the kids participate in all star programs. We tried but were quickly treated differently and essentially black balled from their program.

Nelson · Senior Member

*warning* The following is my opinion so take it for what it's worth.

When I used to coach at Motions, the rule was the team would progress with or without you. Which basically meant don't miss practice. We had a set schedule, it NEVER changed, we NEVER added practices, so I figured that rule would be easy to follow.

So, what the athletes did outside of the practices was their business.

I have never personally understood why anyone (and I'm not generalizing youth football here, so please don't take it that way) would tell athletes what they can and cannot do with their time outside of their commitment to their teams. And I've never understood why parents would allow that either.

Date: Mon Nov 26 1:37 PM, 2007

so let me correct that response since I'm with Oak Ridge. We usually have a competitive team that starts up after the football season. THis year we do not have a comp team. We have girls that are going to power becuase they love cheer and i encourage them to persue what they love. We also offer a very competitive youth team so we know they will come back. IF they don't then i hope they are happy. at the hs level, Oak Ridge is not allowed to be on both hs and all star teams per league rules. i don't know why you would feel black balled for going somewhere else, you should contact the president if you feel that way.

just a mom · Member

Anonymous wrote:

I dont know about the others but Oak Ridge will NOT let the kids participate in all star programs. We tried but were quickly treated differently and essentially black balled from their program.

The league Oak Ridge is in, NCSA, has their own set of rules which clearly state that the girls CAN NOT be in an All Star program. By not allowing the girls be on an All Star team between July - October they are simply following the rules.

Date: Mon Nov 26 3:55 PM, 2007

correct....if they chose to go all star after our season is over....that is fine.
We have several girls that go to other gyms in the area...not just power and that is there choice....if they can improve there skills in the off season great!!!

OC Mom · GURU

Note to youth parents.... October is not too late to join an all star program. Your little one will have to work but it's worth it....

Date: Mon Nov 26 9:30 PM, 2007

just a mom wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I dont know about the others but Oak Ridge will NOT let the kids participate in all star programs. We tried but were quickly treated differently and essentially black balled from their program.

The league Oak Ridge is in, NCSA, has their own set of rules which clearly state that the girls CAN NOT be in an All Star program. By not allowing the girls be on an All Star team between July - October they are simply following the rules.

so let me get this straight. you are tell us that an non-profit organization/league-run by volunteers are saying that the girls are not allowed to be on an All-Star team? since when does a group of volunteers dictate what your child can and can not do with her free time? That's crazy! I can understand if it was another all-star program or a high school, but come on...it's a youth league. People you need to talk to your president and have this rule changed or you are going to lose more and more girls to all-stars. those people can not control you 24-7.

just a mom · Member

Anonymous wrote:

just a mom wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I dont know about the others but Oak Ridge will NOT let the kids participate in all star programs. We tried but were quickly treated differently and essentially black balled from their program.

The league Oak Ridge is in, NCSA, has their own set of rules which clearly state that the girls CAN NOT be in an All Star program. By not allowing the girls be on an All Star team between July - October they are simply following the rules.

so let me get this straight. you are tell us that an non-profit organization/league-run by volunteers are saying that the girls are not allowed to be on an All-Star team? since when does a group of volunteers dictate what your child can and can not do with her free time? That's crazy! I can understand if it was another all-star program or a high school, but come on...it's a youth league. People you need to talk to your president and have this rule changed or you are going to lose more and more girls to all-stars. those people can not control you 24-7.

Typically youth and all star teams practice on days between Monday and Thursday between 530 - 8:30. One problem with girls doing both is that she would most likely be missing practice on one team or another. Stunt groups would suffer by having girls miss 1/2 of the practices. Youth teams have attendance rules just like All Stars, they are not trying to control people 24/7.

Date: Tue Nov 27 7:39 AM, 2007

oak ridge have never told ANY girl they can't go to an all-star program EVER!!!!
But...if they are participating in our youth program, they can't be on an all-star team at the same time...PER LEAGUE RULES! Being black balled means we have actually wasted our time telling other teams not to take you. I'm pretty sure as volunteers we have not taken time out of our day to do that. I'm also sure that in the history of oak ridge the coaches would not take out there issues with the kids when there are issues with the parents and not take them, we would never have any kids left if that were the case, nor would any youth program. youth cheer is brutal with parents. every parent was that HS cheer leader that knows it all....lol

FJWCheer · Member

There is no way a girl can be on a youth football team and also on an all-star team. It doesn't work and the reason I know is because we've tried it and the youth team always suffers. That's why our league (NCSA) made this rule.

Rules to any sport or activity are necessary anywhere you go. How can you have any kind of organized activity if you don't have rules? This isn't park and rec or daycare, it's still cheer and we are in a competitive league. It isn't optional; attend if you feel like it. To those of you saying that a volunteer run business can't tell you what to do 24-7 that's ridiculous. That isn't what the league is trying to do. It's telling girls that they have to make a choice between two activities that have conflicting practice schedules.

Are you telling me that you could go into your gym owner and say, "hey I know we only practice Tuesday and Thursday but my daughter joined a dance team and so she needs to miss every Thursday practice"? Do you really think they would be okay with that?

The youth teams need just as much practice if not more than the all-star teams. For the most part they are trying to teach a competition routine to a team that will perform it just once. They usually get just one shot to perform it well and prove to their team and parents that they didn't work all summer long for nothing. We don't usually have the luxury of being able to tank our first competition and say, "oh well, we'll be better next time!" There usually isn't a next time for that team. We are often times dealing with new coaches as well who don't know what they are doing. Most can and do learn and some do quite well but others don't have the ability and what can you do. We can't pay them. We are usually dealing with teams that are 75% new, have parents who don't understand cheer or the commitment needed. We have to practice outside in the heat and then in the cold and dark. The all-star cheerleaders that we had in the past constantly skipped our practices to attend other practices, competitions and events. What happens when a youth cheerleader comes in 2 weeks before her teams one and only competition and says, " oops I have a competition that same day with my all-star team so I have to quit." This has happened.

There are youth teams out there that have done quite well considering all the odds. And so of them go competition and compete against all-star teams and do well or win. We make it work and we make it happen because we love the sport. Most people on these boards are either from High School or all-star cheer and I would venture to say most of you don't understand The youth football leagues and how they work. Try not to knock us so hard if you don't even know what you are saying, ok? We work hard and we try to fill a void in the cheer community. Some girls want to cheer but just not at the same intensity level as an all-star team. And some can't afford to compete. Some girls really love and believe in Football. Some want the best of both worlds. They want to cheer for their football team and also compete, so we offer that to them. Not all of us know what we are doing but we all try hard for the kids. Hey, don't forget, we do it for FREE!

Date: Tue Nov 27 4:15 PM, 2007

Since there is a large majority of All Stars that started out in Youth Leaques I think everyone knows the commitment it takes. You do not need to defend yourself on this board. I find nothing wrong including in your rules that during your cheer season the kids can not do All Stars. I agree when and how would they find the time to do both. I remember my daughter went 3 days a week to practice, then on add the Saturday, or Sundays when Football season started. It would have been impossible. I know that after the season ended some did All Star half year teams, so that they could cheer full time. I have not been to any gym that has not come out and said that other than school activiities, cheer practice and competitions come first. Also if you do cheer in high school it cannot conflict with the All Star Cheer schedule. I also know quite a few high schools understand that confilct as well and that is why they say you can't do both. Your free to do what you want after the season ends. When you choose to make a commitment you honor it. Sometimes it is impossible to have the best of both worlds.

Date: Tue Nov 27 4:56 PM, 2007

I've seen some of these youth teams perform, and I get scared to death watching them try to do stuff that they are not properly trained to do. I really hope none of them gets hurt and give ALL cheerleading a bad rap!!! The media does not know the difference between youth (pop warner) and ALL STAR Cheer.

Date: Tue Nov 27 5:01 PM, 2007

Anonymous wrote:

I've seen some of these youth teams perform, and I get scared to death watching them try to do stuff that they are not properly trained to do. I really hope none of them gets hurt and give ALL cheerleading a bad rap!!! The media does not know the difference between youth (pop warner) and ALL STAR Cheer.

Why would you post this. It is totally not necessary. There are a lot of really good youth league teams. I'd like to believe you didn't mean to be rude, because I'm sure your really a thoughtful person afterall. Have a wonderful day. biggrin