Another New Debate Topic

Date: Wed Nov 17 11:49 AM, 2004

RE: Another New Debate Topic

Date: Wed Nov 17 1:07 PM, 2004

The best cheerleaders I have seen are great bases, can fly when asked to, and are mad power tumblers!!!!!!!!! Its about being well rounded, and if you want to be narrow minded and "onkly want to be on top"....waah wahh....cry me a river....because most coaches I know, if you ask to be certain part in the routine, most likely your not gonna be that part all year. SO GET OVER IT and learn to base or tumble or even dance. Or maybe you havent found that life is not fair!!!!

Peace!!

Date: Fri Nov 19 3:35 PM, 2004

Nelson: Coming from a coaches point of view I've coached kids in northern cal at high school level and so cal at allstar level is a kid wants to fly and the coah feels there not right to fly on this team its tough luck At magic in laguna hills troy the owner has them quit if its that important this is a team effort not an individual sport. I had a girl I coached on hs two years ago who wanted to fly or she would quit i let her try and she fell out of every thing I took her out of the air befoer nationals practice did she quit no she may have hated me that whole month and at nationals but its the coaches decision. Like you said you can always repalce someone its a team sport not individual.
-Mallorie Korba

Date: Sun Nov 28 11:51 PM, 2004

My daughter flew for 3 years and couldn't tumble more than a so-so BHS. She could fly pretty well and this is what she knew. We moved to another area and the new team was already established and didn't need a flyer. Guess who got her back tuck almost immediatly??? Yep, my little flyer! Once she accepted the fact that she wouldn't fly, she learned to base and tumble in only 2 weeks and was very happy!!!! We talked alot about how she could spend this year getting stronger in her tumbling skills and becoming a stronger base. She worked her little heart out and is now learning her layouts in just two months. No, tumbling doesn't come naturally to her. She tries hard and loves cheering. I will definatly pass this info on to her and this should give her more of an incentive to become a better tumbler. She wants to cheer in college but is still in Jr High.

Good Luck Cheergyms and thanks Nelson for the great topic.

PS.... Guess who's flying now that they needed someone to fill in..... yep, my little flyer.... and she is still tumbling her little heart out.

Date: Mon Nov 29 12:00 AM, 2004

If a girl threatens to quit, a good long talk needs to happen between coach, parent and cheerleader. This is a TEAM sport. And although you want your child to have a good experience, it needs to be clear that this is a competitive team and you are here to work hard and try to win competitions. No matter how cold it sounds, that is what the competitive cheerleading world is all about. Winning competitions. And if you cannot give your all to your team whether you are on the ground, in the air, up in the front row or in the back, then you do not belong on a comeptitive cheer team. It's plain and simple. No one wants to see their daughter unhappy, but an unhappy cheerleader doesn't bring to the mat what needs to be there to win competitions. And this brings EVERYONE down. Nipping this situation in the bud does everyone good since too much time will be spent on apeasing this person and not spent on the team as a whole. Not every football player can be the Quarterback. But that Quarterback cannot play without his protection. When that is clear, everyone is happier. This is a hard thing for a coach because no one wants to be the bearer of bad news, but this complaining cheerleader needs to know where she stands before she ruins things for the team as a whole. A decision should be made during the confrence with the coach and parents and the guidelines need to be set, loud and clear. The coach makes the decisions as to whom goes where and that is that. If one cannot live with that, then it sounds like another sport should be chosen for this cheerleader.

Date: Sat Dec 4 2:01 PM, 2004

The best cheerleaders I've coached are able to do whatever is asked of them - whether it's base or fly. I'm sure every program has had a kid leave (or have a parent pull their kid) because they are not flying - even if they are the worst flyer you've ever seen. Honestly, that's not a kid I would WANT in my program. For those who DO complain about it, think about it for a second...why would a coach want a child and/or parent who can't be a team player and do what the team needs and what's best for the team?

Cheerleading at the all-star and college level is a team sport. If you're all about yourself and not about the team, you may as well stay home.

Date: Sat Dec 4 2:03 PM, 2004

Also, the ONLY time I ever flew was in college. I was a base on my high school cheer teams, a base on my all star cheer teams, and when I got to college, I was taught to fly and it was no problem.

Date: Sun Jul 30 2:08 PM, 2006

Bringing back the old skool topics

Date: Sun Jul 30 5:25 PM, 2006

RE: Another New Debate Topic

Date: Sun Jul 30 6:54 PM, 2006

In the past I've noticed myself keeping certain people out of the air because I don't like their attitude during workouts. Some people while very talented in the air can't handle the ups and downs (no pun intended) of working hard as a flyer. I have no patience for that. I can ONLY work with coachable flyers. Ask yourselves that. If you think you should be flying and you're not......maybe you're annoying your coach.

Date: Sun Jul 30 10:19 PM, 2006

Kudos to that post!!!!!!!!! I fully agree, I would rather work with a flyer that has a great attitude than one that thinks that she deserves to be in the air just because she wants it!

Date: Mon Jul 31 11:07 AM, 2006

I have a bunch of girls who would rather base or backspot! BUT! I make sure all my kids get to see how each and every position feels. As I explain to them, an all-star is not just one position or one tumbling pass, it's everything! So, when someone wants to fly, they fly. Every time I've put up that one girl who nags about flying, she decides when she's up there that she wants to keep her feet on the ground. I also put everyone up as flying and other positions so they can see how important each person is and also how hard it is as a flyer, base, back, or front.

Another note, usually the kids who nag about flying are the best flyers! They have great determination.

Date: Wed Dec 6 1:07 AM, 2006

Nelson wrote:

For all of you who think flying at the High School/All Star level will help you fly at the college level...think about it this way. Unless your current team is doing 2 high pyramids and head over heels basket tosses, then your flying skills in the HS/AS level probably mean diddly squat to a college coach.

Take for example, we can all agree that Sacramento State is probably one of the top college cheer squads in the Nation. Kassie Cook flew in just a pyramid here at Motions, yet she was accepted to Sac State. Why? Because Kassie is an incredible tumbler. Now, she flys there all the time. Why? Because of her background training in tumbling.

Can anyone honestly tell me of a college or a college coach that believes that it is important for a incoming freshman to have experience flying?

Ummm, yeah! U of L has flying requirements for ladies who want to be on Co-ed, and so does HPU! UK has requirements as well! I do both, flying and tumbling, but lately I've realized that the stunting part of it is what drew me into cheerleading. If I wanted to just tumble, I'd have stayed in gymnastics. It's sad to see that teams are so much more tumbling-focussed nowadays. A lot of routines are starting to look like a 30-person floor exercise!

Date: Wed Dec 6 9:57 AM, 2006

Getting back to:
What do you guys think of cheerleaders who complain to their coach or threaten to quit their team (or do quit) because they aren't flying?

complaining = laps/hollow holds/pushups/etc

My parent point-of-view is "Fine, quit" if you can't be a team player, then go find yourself an individual sport where you can shine on your own merits - not on the hands/shoulders/strength and muster of those below you. I have been involved with teams in the past that have had prima donas - they are not good for team moral.

Now my daughter has never been a flyer, she has always been a base/backspot kind of gal (going on 8 yrs now) - so I don't have a flyers perspective - but there is NO WAY that flyer can rise up without help. My daughter has had black eyes, fat lips, and big bruises from many a flyer that thinks they are "the bomb" ...yeah...they explode alright...and leave marks that they were there.

So it's always possible that the complaining flyer is not as good as they think they are overall. Or maybe they are good, but the nagging rubs the coach the wrong way and doesn't earn any respect. Respect is a 2-way street.

Maybe we should try to call them "Top Girls" again to remind them that there are others below them!

Now an aside to all this, are some of the parents I have heard (over the years) feed into this illusion/opinion. I am sometimes totally amazed that a parent of a cheerleader will start complaining amoungst other parents about how their son/daughter should be in a certain spot "Because (s)he is way better than XYZ" . Wow. What if I was the parent/relative/friend of XYZ? I would be insulted. So I can imagine the car ride home with some of these complaining flyers, and their agreeing parents must be full of rightiousness that helps breed these attitudes.

And its not just for flyers. I have heard tumblers, and/or their parents, complain that their cheerleader doesn't have enough passes - or isn't getting a chance to showcase their talent. Or how they are always in the back, etc etc etc.

yeah yeah yeah - whatever - TEAM SPORT remember?

My daughter complains to me sometimes too - so I have no illusion that we are perfect - far from it. Many a time I have caught myself thinking "What in the world is Nelson doing/thinking?!?!" You know, Monday Quarterback kind of stuff. I just try and catch myself when we are heading down that path and remind myself, as well as my kiddo, that from the OVERALL perspective things looks great. Yeah Yeah your part in the dance is minor ... sooo?????? The dance looks fine- AS A GROUP. Yeah Yeah they cant see you in the pyramid - So don't worry about your Facials -just keep your part of the stunt up. etc etc etc.

If a cheerleader thinks they deserve a position - they need to prove it through work ethics and attitude. Fortunalty flyers had the opportunity to enroll in that flying class that was offered earlier, to work those skills. Tumblers have the monday classes and everyone has the options of privates. Actions speak louder than words.

Of course this is JUST MY OPINION, and I know it, so don't take it personal and start bashing me. :->

April

Date: Wed Dec 6 11:59 AM, 2006

As a cheer mom - I would like to know why a gym would not let all the girls at least try to fly? We are at a gym where the flyer can't hit a stunt ( at practice or at comp.) they have been working with her for 4 months solid and continue to work with her. Why not let another girl try?

Date: Wed Dec 6 12:03 PM, 2006

Letting another girl try, is alot different than letting "all the girls" try.

Date: Wed Dec 6 12:03 PM, 2006

Why not? wrote:

As a cheer mom - I would like to know why a gym would not let all the girls at least try to fly? We are at a gym where the flyer can't hit a stunt ( at practice or at comp.) they have been working with her for 4 months solid and continue to work with her. Why not let another girl try?

I'll tell you that at our gym they have done the same thing since the team was formed we have one little girl that has been up in the air and looks like c r a p . And is she up in the air still? OF COURSE, You want to know why, cause her mom is so far up the coaches b u t t and their family has money so they wouldn't dare ground the little darlin!!

Date: Wed Dec 6 12:56 PM, 2006

Just because one flyer isn't hitting a stunt doesn't mean there's someone else who can. There's tons of kids (and their parents) who think they are "flyers" but really aren't. There's more to a flyer than being able to get up into a prep. Most kids who come to our gym that are self-professed "flyers" can do a prep and a full, can barely straight cradle, can't full down and definitely cannot fly in a liberty much less any advanced body positions. Plus, it requires a certain amount of body control and awareness, presence in the air that not every one has, and an ability to save a less-than-sturdy stunt, recover from a mistake and/or "wing it" when something goes wrong. It's not about just being the lightest, smallest kid on the team, there are a lot more things involved.

Date: Wed Dec 6 1:45 PM, 2006

Nelson,

As a former Sac State Cheerleader, as well as an all-star coach, I see your point very clearly and would like to add to it. Many may disagree with my points as I do see people that will dispute anything on this board. All I will speak from is from my experience as a cheerleader, coach, and husband of the Advisor of Sac State.

When you consider a small all-girl team, Only five girls can fly, only five can back, and the other ten will be bases in order to put up the maximum number of all-girl stunts. So for a parent to argue that a girl has to be able to fly at a rediculous level to make a college team is rediculous. There are minimum requirements to make college teams, but not any that would require a girl knowing how to do everything. It is true we would love a girl to have every skill imaginable in both stunting and tumbling, but in reality that does not occur very often.

There was a comment made earleir about girls needing to be a triple threat (base, back, and fly). While that is very desireable it is somewhat uncommen for a girl to do at the college level in one competition routine. It is required that a girl trying out for the Small Coed or all-girl team to be able to do two parts, whatever that may be. (base and back, back and fly, base and fly). But ultimately coaches have to put together the best all around team and fill positions with people that will most benefit the team.

When we get to talking about a coed college team then there are completely different dynamics to consider. College coed teams consist of guys, therefore you the smallest girl on the team will not be the only girl in the air. You typically only put up two or three pyramids at one time, requiring three or more girls to middle layer (or base at the second level). There are great girls that have had a lot of basing experience that have made huge impacts on Sac State Coed teams.

Coed teams can also be large and small, therefore requiring different things. A large coed team will be expected to have the maximum number of stunts in the air based on the number of girls on the team. Thus, requiring every girl to fly. A small coed team will be a mixture of partner stunts and all-girl stunts.

We do focus in on tumbling skills as well, because it is a desirable skill for any team, and the body awareness is something that cannot be taught as easily in one season like you can teach basic stunting. Body awareness can be taught in the air, but can also be learned on the ground. College teams want all-around athletes that can perfrom when and where needed in routines. The better you are all-around, the better chance you have of making a team.

Remember also that when we talk about size in regards to cheerleaders, these girls are typically smaller in relation to the majority of the U.S.population.

Thanks,
John

Date: Wed Dec 6 2:12 PM, 2006

But wrote:

Just because one flyer isn't hitting a stunt doesn't mean there's someone else who can. There's tons of kids (and their parents) who think they are "flyers" but really aren't. There's more to a flyer than being able to get up into a prep. Most kids who come to our gym that are self-professed "flyers" can do a prep and a full, can barely straight cradle, can't full down and definitely cannot fly in a liberty much less any advanced body positions. Plus, it requires a certain amount of body control and awareness, presence in the air that not every one has, and an ability to save a less-than-sturdy stunt, recover from a mistake and/or "wing it" when something goes wrong. It's not about just being the lightest, smallest kid on the team, there are a lot more things involved.

But how will they know if they NEVER try anyone else because they are determined that no matter what, this girl will FLY regardless. Especially if that is the sole purpose of why she was brought to the team. She does not tumble....