WOW Cheer Odyssey getting new unis? Are all of your teams getting crop tops? That will be nice. I like it that Nor cal teams are going for more glitz lately. Can't wait to see what you guys have in store. 9 teams wow, You have sure grown. What teams are you having if you don't mind.

As far as the All American issue, I am also sad that we won't see Motions and Pyramids, I really enjoyed their performance last year. It was Phenomenal. I guess what seems to be on every ones mind iis how does the partnership work. I do not want this to be taken the wrong way, but isn't this a little like the issue 2 years ago of the borrowing athletes just to win? . Isn't this a way of borrowing athletes that some coaches in Northern California mentioned that they had been approached from other gyms coaches.

I guess for me it is a matter of trust and loyalty, I don't really understand. Are the 2 gyms owned by Cheergyms not sufficient to field Level 5 teams?  I think Level 5 is out of control. So what about Level 2's. If a gym does not have enough athletes to make a Level 2 team willl they also partner with another gym? It just takes the competition element away. Now everybody is cheering for everybody.

This is my view:Let the Dodgers play against the Angels and the Mets against the Yankees in regular season and when its over have the All Star game with the Best of the Best .  For those who did not understand the baseball analogy here it is in plain english. Let AP compete against POWER and Motions compete against AP. Then let them all join up at the end of regular season and form the super team and do a battle of the states I think CFCoach was trying to do something like this. I know it will never happen but a girl can dream can't she?

This is what Morton had to say about borrowing athletes. Morton is a great gym owner and he is on the USASF board so he knows what he is doing. I am sure if he was doing something illegal it would have been brought to Les Stellas attention.

The purpose of the USASF Worlds was to get the best teams across the country at one place and have a showdown. It wasnt meant to see how many kids a coach can pull from wherever, whenever to win. But lets face it, winning the USASF Worlds is a feather in any coachs hat so recruiting and/or sharing are evils that have transpired, all in the name of winning.There is no rule against it. No company will probably ever have any rule against it because to monitor it is a nightmare until we can come up with an inexpensive way to register and card every cheerleader in the US. Or have cheer police at every competition to check out team rosters and monitor the where abouts of each kid all year. Hopefully this is something that will happen in the future.So I guess the answer is, it up to the parents and the coaches. The coaches need to see how detrimental it is to our industry in terms of trust and sportsmanship, not to mention what it says to our kids about winning at all costs. It also deflates the notion that hard work and dedication are just as important (or really more important) as winning.The parents need to voice their opinions to the coaches/owners on how they feel when their child has been working on a team all year and then at the last minute a new person comes on without paying or even sacrificing all that a child sacrifices to be on that level of a team.The bottom line is that none of us can pass judgment on anyone. All we can do is what is best for our program and situation. Everyones moral and values are different. I heard a saying once Like Attracts Like. Meaning that how you are as a person and/or organization are the type of people you will attract to yourself and your business. I know I want to attract people with proper standards, good morals, fair values and a sense of good sportsmanship to my business.

-- Edited by CheerMama at 09:31, 2007-07-24

Tamara wrote:

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Not only is it fair, it's been in practice by east coast and southern teams for years.

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It's been a while since my last post.  But I have to chime in this topic.  So, let me get this straight. 

The gyms from Pyramids, Motions, CSE, and Athletic Perfection do not have level 5 teams in their own designated gyms?  Correct?  The gyms are all claiming they only have talent that is level 4?  Hummm....not buying this one at all but for augument sake I will go with the flow on this one.

However, the 4/3 separately owned gyms can all bring their athletes together to build a junior 5, senior 5, and co-ed senior5 teams and call these teams the All-American teams?

So, the level 5 cheerleaders perform down (in their designated gyms) at the level 4 to accomplish what?  Say, you all beat a bunch of rookie level 4 teams?  When all along your talent is at level 5.  In my day we called that sandbagging.  You are holding the talent down.  For what?  To try to capture some easy victories? 

This really doesn't jive with me.  And I know, and no one needs to tell me that USASF says it's ok, but I don't like it.  It's cheating were I come from.  I could care less about the building of the All-American teams, I am more concerned about the level 4 division.  That's where the cheating is occuring the most. 

Tisk, Tisk, Tisk.  It's just plain wrong! 

Cheer411 wrote:

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Tamara wrote:

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Not only is it fair, it's been in practice by east coast and southern teams for years.

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It's been a while since my last post.  But I have to chime in this topic.  So, let me get this straight. 

The gyms from Pyramids, Motions, CSE, and Athletic Perfection do not have level 5 teams in their own designated gyms?  Correct?  The gyms are all claiming they only have talent that is level 4?  Hummm....not buying this one at all but for augument sake I will go with the flow on this one.

However, the 4/3 separately owned gyms can all bring their athletes together to build a junior 5, senior 5, and co-ed senior5 teams and call these teams the All-American teams?

So, the level 5 cheerleaders perform down (in their designated gyms) at the level 4 to accomplish what?  Say, you all beat a bunch of rookie level 4 teams?  When all along your talent is at level 5.  In my day we called that sandbagging.  You are holding the talent down.  For what?  To try to capture some easy victories? 

This really doesn't jive with me.  And I know, and no one needs to tell me that USASF says it's ok, but I don't like it.  It's cheating were I come from.  I could care less about the building of the All-American teams, I am more concerned about the level 4 division.  That's where the cheating is occuring the most. 

Tisk, Tisk, Tisk.  It's just plain wrong! 

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The combination of these kids make them level 5, not the seperation of them. It's the same thing World Cup, Cheer Extreme and other gyms do but without the same names. There is a partnership in place of direct ownership, which makes it different. Actually its not wrong, unless it's against the rules, and to my knowledge its not.

I am not commenting on any program specifically I am just explaining that the combination of the kids makes it a level 5 team. What each gym does is their own business. I just wanted to point out how it is possible because someone stated it is wrong. It would be hurtful if I was a child and read on these boards that my team is "wrong" because an individual doesn't agree on its methods,especially if its not against the USASF rules to this point. That's all im saying.

Cheer411 wrote:

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AbbyByTheBay wrote:

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xpressjag -- are you saying that without this partnership, for the first time in years, Motions and Pyramids would not have level 5 teams?  It's hard for most of us to buy that, sorry.

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This is what I can't believe either. 

Pryamids and Motions were both represented at worlds last season.  Were their teams all comprised of 18 year olds?   And all those 18 years are to old to cheer now?  And all that remains in their gym are truly level 4 cheerleaders?  I really don't know if I can buy this one.


On the other hand, CSE and AP didn't attempt to send their teams to worlds last year or even field a level 5 team last season.   I see the "opportunity" for some of their athletes double teaming on the All-American team to get the opportunity to compete at level 5 (just a handful, though).

Again, I am not questioning the forming of the All-American team.  I am questioning why a few of these gyms can't field level 5 teams in their "home" gyms.   But yet, can pull together 3 different level 5 teams when the gyms "unite"?  I could understand if all these gyms could form just 1 All-American team, then ok.  BUT 3 teams, the numbers just don't add up.  At least two of those "home" gyms should be competing level 5.





-- Edited by Cheer411 at 07:03, 2007-07-26

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I agree with you on this but I understand that Motions and Pyramids are actually "Cheergyms.com" and Power Red and Power Blue are just Power. So for thoses teams have every right to combine they are owned by the same people. They have the same rules their owners put into place. Now by adding CSE and AP they are not owned by the same people.

I bet if Power decided to create a partnership with lets say Club Spirit Rockets, Roseville Cheer Starz, Cheer Odyssey and Starstruck people would be screaming and yelling and with the vast amount of athletes that Power already has at Level 5 people would consider it sandbagging the Level 4 divisions then the 3 and so on. Pretty soon there will only be 2 teams in Northern Cali and we could just stop calling them Competitions we could call them Cheer Recitals. So lets combine the Level 2 divisions, People would be upset about that to.

IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT SENIOR LEVEL 5

It is about creating memories and of course winning is an added bonus, but what are we really teaching our kids that the organization they belong to is not sufficient to create the desired results and we have to go outside the organization to gather more talent?

One final example, because you know me, I love examples and analogies.
In the Olympics a player that has dual citizenship cannot compete for both countries in different events, just as here athletes should not be allowed to compete at Levels 4 and 5.

It was my understanding from years past that All American athletes needed to also be part of their home team in order to participate in All American, so for AP and CSE is that also the case? What teams are these All American athletes from AP competing on since they don't have a Senior Level 4 this year. Are they going to sandbag the Level 2 division. That just doesn't seem fair to girls who are working their butts off in the Level 2 division

Speaking of taking the time, maybe someone will take the time and address some of the issues that have been brought up with this thread.

The team members you speak of on the level 4 teams who are not on All American and are working hard on their level 4 skills are what the level 4 teams were intended for, I believe.  They were also intended for gyms that perhaps only have a few/handful of level 5 athletes and not enough to form a level 5 team.  But I don't think it was intended for level 5 athletes to compete on a level 5 team AND a level 4 or below.  That's the only point I was trying to make.

-- Edited by AbbyByTheBay at 11:54, 2007-07-26

-- Edited by AbbyByTheBay at 11:54, 2007-07-26

I totally see your point. But at the same time I can count numerouse teams, none in which will be mentioned, that have kids cross over all the time. And I know for a fact they don't cross over to a team at the same level. So with your point look at the other side. If we only had those kids compete on Level 5 for All American, and they were not on another team at the Pyramids/Motions/etc. But say I only have about 4 or 5 level 4 cheerleaders. As a coaches point of view I am not going to have the team that those level 4 cheerleaders are on go level 4 because there are 4 standing tucks out of 20 or 36. That's just silly. That team would go level 3. So would everyone have the same opinion or would it change because now it's level 4 to 3?

The point that I am trying to make is just because you have people on your team that can through higher skill level than what they compete does not mean you should go that level. If I have one full I am not going to go level 5. We are bringing together gyms who do not have the luxury of being on a level 5 team to compete level 5. Just because a team might have 2 or 3 higher level cheerleaders on it does not make it sandbagging. If I'm correct it takes 20 or 36 people for a team to win, and look good on the floor. One cool cross pass by a great tumbler will not win you that comeptition. That's my point.

AbbyByTheBay wrote:

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Now here's the difference between the two, and correct me if I'm wrong.  As far as I know, Power takes their level 5 teams and competes level 5 at regionals, nationals and Worlds.  What they don't do is take the talent on their level 5 teams and create level 4 teams.  What would be the point?  Their level 4 teams are completely separate.  That's the part I think people are having issues with, and rightfully so.  Hopefully someone can shed some light. 

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Yes. This is the part that I am having a difficult time trying to accept.  I know that teams around this country do it all the time.  I have attended a competition where a gym had their level 5 senior team perform 5 times in one competition.  They started out at level 1 competed there. Moved on to level 2 competed there, and so on.  The team took home 5 first place trophies. 

Is this fair with everyone that reads this board? 

No, of course it's not fair to see a level 5 team compete at level 1. 

The gym owner did this to prove a point.   The point being the rules are too lax.   He was tired of going to this ruling committee meetings and discussing the need to tighten up the regulations of competitive cheerleading only to be totally ignored. 

Will this happen again, probably.  At some point morale and ethics need to become apart of this sport.  Hopefully, it just a matter of time.




-- Edited by Cheer411 at 06:35, 2007-07-27

AbbyByTheBay wrote:

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Good points... I don't think you have to be "in the industry" to understand the issues.  Angie, in your example, if the All American Team were the only level 5's and you had a few level 4's left, then you would have a level 3 team.  You field a team based on what talent walks in the door, right?   What is wrong with taking the best talent you have from your gyms and forming level 5 teams and letting them only compete at level 5?  What is the point of using the same level 5 athletes to fill in to make lower level teams?  Why not take who is left and put them on the appropriate teams Sideshow mentioned?  If you have enough left to have a team of full standing tucks, you have a level 4 team.  If not, you need to drop to 3 like most other gyms would have to. 

I wish there were USASF rules that stated if you are competing at a higher level you cannot also compete at a lower level.  It would resolve these types of issues. 

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I remember last year talk of USASF credentialing athletes so that they had to be credentialed at Level 5 to be at Worlds but in only 1 of 3 areas, and their own coaches credential them. 1 of 3 seemd like a loophole, So a child can't do jumps to tucks and can barely do a roundoff but is a level 5 base she could be on the team.

Credentialing should be at 2 out of 3
The athlete should qualify by either standing or pass tumbling and one other element stunts or tosses

USASF does not allow an athlete credentialed at Level 4 to compete at Worlds as I don't believe they should allow a athlete credentialed at Level 4 compete at Level 2.

My daughter is a Level 7 gymnast she has some Level 8 skills but cannot compete at that Level as I know that it would be illegal and unethical for her to compete at Level 6