Which Way To Go, 4 or 5?

Date: Wed May 31 1:44 PM, 2006

Which Way To Go, 4 or 5?

Date: Wed May 31 3:15 PM, 2006

Well, the way I think if it is...

If your particular level allows back handsprings, you best believe that you will compete against full team back handsprings. How do you compare to that if you don't have them?

Same with every single level. If it is allowed and you want a chance at a National title worth bragging about, you best believe you MUST have most if not all of your team doing what is allowed at that level.

I think the only real serious/obvious problem I found last season was in the Tiny/Mini levels where you had 8 year olds competing against 4 & 5 year olds. Maybe they ARE only allowed to do cartwheels, but the difference between an 8 year olds coordination and a 4 year olds coordination is HUGE HUGE HUGE.

But other than that, it's the coaches who should not do that to their kids. It's quite heartbreaking to see kids who CLEARLY do not belong in a particular level. My heart breaks for them.

Date: Wed May 31 5:20 PM, 2006

Well, I personally think this is a no brainer. The decision should be made based on the skills that the majority of the team has. If the skills progress throughout the season then by all means you can advance the level you are competing at.

With all the buzz about Worlds I am sure that a lot of gyms would like to put together more level 5 teams. However, if the skills are not there for the majority of the team then for many different reasons they should be level 4.

Safety alone is a HUGE issue here. Too much pushing of the kids that aren't ready to throw level 5 tumbling or do level 5 stunts can cause injuries. I guess this is why they are talking about the athlete certification for next year.

Date: Wed May 31 10:03 PM, 2006

Concerned in Cali wrote:

Well, I personally think this is a no brainer. The decision should be made based on the skills that the majority of the team has. If the skills progress throughout the season then by all means you can advance the level you are competing at.

With all the buzz about Worlds I am sure that a lot of gyms would like to put together more level 5 teams. However, if the skills are not there for the majority of the team then for many different reasons they should be level 4.

Safety alone is a HUGE issue here. Too much pushing of the kids that aren't ready to throw level 5 tumbling or do level 5 stunts can cause injuries. I guess this is why they are talking about the athlete certification for next year.

I agree, the buzz about Worlds has many gyms trying to form level 5 teams for that reason only. My concern is safety and pushing kids to quickly. Will coaches skill basic skills to get those standing backs, and will kids try to switch around gyms until they find their "dream team". Its such a huge circle in all stars, because people try to be competitive to just keep their client base, but sometimes it comes at a cost.

Date: Thu Jun 1 12:38 AM, 2006

So what would you say should be the deciding factor for level 5 then... for instance, you have a team (small or large) where 50% have fulls. Definitely go level 5? What if only 25% of the team have fulls, but over 50% have layouts and/or standing tucks? I think the original question might have been more specific, like, what do you think it takes to be truly competitive in the level 5 category. What I always hate is when a team has three fulls and thinks that's enough to be at that level. You don't see that at Worlds of course. But we see it too often at regionals.

From what I'm reading, the answer seems to be whatever the majority of skill level is, that's the level to go at. But it's tricky to go 4 when you have talent on your team you hate to not utilize.

Date: Thu Jun 1 8:04 AM, 2006

Well to be a competative level 5 team you need to throw doubles to be a level 5 team i think you should have a squad of standing tucks and a lot of combo passes through to fulls. You won't be a power house level 5 team but you will be able to compete as a level 5.

Date: Thu Jun 1 8:31 AM, 2006

In That Case wrote:

So what would you say should be the deciding factor for level 5 then... for instance, you have a team (small or large) where 50% have fulls. Definitely go level 5? What if only 25% of the team have fulls, but over 50% have layouts and/or standing tucks? I think the original question might have been more specific, like, what do you think it takes to be truly competitive in the level 5 category. What I always hate is when a team has three fulls and thinks that's enough to be at that level. You don't see that at Worlds of course. But we see it too often at regionals.

From what I'm reading, the answer seems to be whatever the majority of skill level is, that's the level to go at. But it's tricky to go 4 when you have talent on your team you hate to not utilize.

When you compete locally, in this case Northern California its ok to compete level 5 because its your region. Although Power, Cheergyms.com, powerhouse, nor cal elite and airborne have level 5 teams you can attend events where they do and don't attend and be competitive. When you compete on a national level, then you might have to adjust a bit and compete level 4.

As for a breaking point I would say to compete level 5 Nationally and be competiitve, you should have at least 25% of the team have fulls, 75% of the team have standing backs, and your stunts have at LEAST 3 body positions with doubles. Now I said to be competitive, its another story if you want to WIN, especially when you see teams like Cheer Athletics throwing triple toe backs and near team fulls.

Date: Thu Jun 1 8:42 AM, 2006

to be competitve you should max out your level....if you are allowed to full from stunts, throw layouts and standing tucks, 90-100% of the team should have that skill. If you are allowed to throw fulls and doubles in the air and the floor then the same applies. There is nothing worse then seeing a team, for example, at level 5 and having 2 out of 20 throwing ugly fulls just because they can-it looks bad, if you are one of these teams please stop for the safety of your kids.

Date: Thu Jun 1 10:57 AM, 2006

hey guys I have a question ? What do you all think about this ? What do you do if you are a smallish gym and you have 4 or so girls that do fulls but the rest are really level 4. How do you keep those girls in your gym that do have those fulls. we have been dealing with that alot. Girls get fulls but we can not compete with a local gyms level 5 teams- we get killed. But if we do not give thos girls a chance to go level 5 and use thier skills we lose them to that gym too. It is hard because thier is not a lot of talent in our valley area anyways. what do you guys think ?

Date: Thu Jun 1 10:57 AM, 2006

You know what "friend?" You are RIGHT ON THE MONEY. If it' allowed, your ENTIRE TEAM should be doing it. Not if SOME aren't, then ok, but if less than 75% aren't.... well, don't expect to place against the Big Dogs.

Date: Thu Jun 1 7:40 PM, 2006

What do you do ? wrote:

hey guys I have a question ? What do you all think about this ? What do you do if you are a smallish gym and you have 4 or so girls that do fulls but the rest are really level 4. How do you keep those girls in your gym that do have those fulls. we have been dealing with that alot. Girls get fulls but we can not compete with a local gyms level 5 teams- we get killed. But if we do not give thos girls a chance to go level 5 and use thier skills we lose them to that gym too. It is hard because thier is not a lot of talent in our valley area anyways. what do you guys think ?

From one Valley to another, one small gym to another, one who also loses girls to level 5 gyms...hmmm...are we from the same gym??? j/k...anyways do you have a tumbling coach? I wish our owner would get aggressive and go find an awesome tumbling coach who could spot fulls~ bring something new to the gym. We have great coaches, but a little boost from an awesome tumbling coach would just be great for my teammates and I! Good luck~ we will probably see you on the competition mat this season since we're in the same boat!

Date: Fri Jun 2 6:03 AM, 2006

What do you do ? wrote:

hey guys I have a question ? What do you all think about this ? What do you do if you are a smallish gym and you have 4 or so girls that do fulls but the rest are really level 4. How do you keep those girls in your gym that do have those fulls. we have been dealing with that alot. Girls get fulls but we can not compete with a local gyms level 5 teams- we get killed. But if we do not give thos girls a chance to go level 5 and use thier skills we lose them to that gym too. It is hard because thier is not a lot of talent in our valley area anyways. what do you guys think ?

This happens alot, but I tell girls that they can work on other passes they DON't have. Many kids think that if they have a full, then thats all they can work on. Level 4 allows punch front through to many things after. Yes its not a full, but if you watch some really good level 4 teams they push it to the max. Plus they can work on their standing tumbling. A standing back tuck is not the only thing to work on. You might also want to consider competing level 5 at some smaller events and 4 at the larger ones. Get the best of both worlds.

Date: Mon Jun 5 8:49 PM, 2006

Agree wrote:

You know what "friend?" You are RIGHT ON THE MONEY. If it' allowed, your ENTIRE TEAM should be doing it. Not if SOME aren't, then ok, but if less than 75% aren't.... well, don't expect to place against the Big Dogs.

75% huh? Is that to say that a team should not compete Level 5 25% of your kids don't throw doubles? Honestly, I believe that if a TEAM can LOOK like a Level 5 TEAM, and put on a Level 5 PERFORMANCE, they should compete 5. Its about the quality of the overall performance, not the quantity of skills you put on the floor. Now, obviously you need the skills to put this performance together. But its about how you put it out the floor, not the number you put on the floor.

Some "Food for Thought.." Motions Sr. Coed last year, who placed 10th at World's and scored very close to some fellow California teams that we would consider "Big Dog teams, didn't have full squad tumbling. As in, there were people on that team, that went to World's, without the ability, at that time, to throw a standing backhandspring.
And if we're only speaking of numbers, they only had SIX boys, and THREE doubles. I'm no math whiz, but 3 out of 35 is definitely not 75%.

Date: Mon Jun 5 9:49 PM, 2006

What do you do ? wrote:

hey guys I have a question ? What do you all think about this ? What do you do if you are a smallish gym and you have 4 or so girls that do fulls but the rest are really level 4. How do you keep those girls in your gym that do have those fulls. we have been dealing with that alot. Girls get fulls but we can not compete with a local gyms level 5 teams- we get killed. But if we do not give thos girls a chance to go level 5 and use thier skills we lose them to that gym too. It is hard because thier is not a lot of talent in our valley area anyways. what do you guys think ?

I agree with what disagree said... if the team can put a level 5 performance then go for level 5.... if you were to keep losing then i guess it would be a team decision to compete 5 or 4. but if the team has the ability to perform at level 5 then go for it. even with only a couple fulls.

but also if they arent ready for level 5 then i guess level 4 is it. if you lose a couple people because of that decision then i guess you shouldnt want them. if they dont want to be there then you shouldnt have to want them there either.

Date: Mon Jun 5 9:49 PM, 2006

It's not about what you CAN do.

It's about what you can make the judges believe you CAN do.

Date: Mon Jun 5 10:38 PM, 2006

I see what you're saying, but it's just so strange to say that about a sport, when you think about it. Let's take gymnastics, for example... a sport you could say is close to competitive cheerleading (closer than most sports anyway). There's no illusion there, either you can do particular skills, or you can't. Same with ice skating. So to say it's about making the judges think you CAN, well personally, I think that will only get you so far. Maybe as high as 10th at Worlds, for instance. If that's your goal, than it's definitely doable, as we have seen. But in my opinion the bar is being raised higher every year, and you can't fool all the people all the time, right?

Now from an entertainment point of view, I love watching a team that appears to do it all just as much as a team that really has the skills. But I would hope in our sport the skills themselves would be awarded over the illusion of having skills. Does that make sense?

Date: Mon Jun 5 11:07 PM, 2006

It's Just Odd wrote:

\But I would hope in our sport the skills themselves would be awarded over the illusion of having skills. Does that make sense?

What happens when everyone gets the skill then?

Date: Mon Jun 5 11:10 PM, 2006

When everyone gets the skills, you have true competition where it's all about both the skills AND the presentation. The best of the best!

Date: Sun Jun 11 7:13 PM, 2006

i dont think level fivve is just about pulling fulls...

Date: Sun Jun 11 8:41 PM, 2006

just fulls? wrote:

i dont think level fivve is just about pulling fulls...

Your right about the fulls, but thats a huge part of it. If you don't have at least 25% of your team throwing fulls locally (Nor Cal), then you should compete at level 4. You can still do standing backs and all the body positions. Judges are looking for those specific skills, so if you don't throw them, then be at the level your team is at.