As we come closer and closer to the Cheerleading Worlds and as the final bids are being handed out over the next few weeks I would like to pose a question....
Do you feel that The Cheerleading Worlds in the very short time it has exisisted managed to become just another competition or "Nationals"?
Worlds was built on the idea of being a competition of the "best of the best" teams comming together by invitation of the larger companies to allow teams to battle for the right to say they are not only the best in the nation but the world. So what I am wondering does anyone besides me feel that Worlds really is no better than some of the TOP "National" events in the country. Minus the fact that Worlds is the only place that I have ever seen teams from other countries battle it out with some of the top teams from the US Worlds has become in MY opinion just another competition.
So with this in mind it beggs the question. Does the current bid process hurt the quality of competition at Worlds? or Do you even agree with the current bid process?
Personally I feel the way we are going with Worlds in a couple years gyms maybe be able to just sign a team up for Worlds if they can pay enough money.
Note: "the best of the best" was put into quotes because I saw two different coaches use the exact same term while being interviewed for the build up to NCA All Star Nationals.
"nationals" was put into quotes because the term was debated in a discussion over too many competitions and what does it mean to be a "national champion" if you only compete against one or two other teams.
As we come closer and closer to the Cheerleading Worlds and as the final bids are being handed out over the next few weeks I would like to pose a question....
Do you feel that The Cheerleading Worlds in the very short time it has exisisted managed to become just another competition or "Nationals"?
Worlds was built on the idea of being a competition of the "best of the best" teams comming together by invitation of the larger companies to allow teams to battle for the right to say they are not only the best in the nation but the world. So what I am wondering does anyone besides me feel that Worlds really is no better than some of the TOP "National" events in the country. Minus the fact that Worlds is the only place that I have ever seen teams from other countries battle it out with some of the top teams from the US Worlds has become in MY opinion just another competition.
So with this in mind it beggs the question. Does the current bid process hurt the quality of competition at Worlds? or Do you even agree with the current bid process?
Personally I feel the way we are going with Worlds in a couple years gyms maybe be able to just sign a team up for Worlds if they can pay enough money.
Note: "the best of the best" was put into quotes because I saw two different coaches use the exact same term while being interviewed for the build up to NCA All Star Nationals.
"nationals" was put into quotes because the term was debated in a discussion over too many competitions and what does it mean to be a "national champion" if you only compete against one or two other teams.
The goal of World's is admirable. The process to get there is laughable. If you truly want the best of the best, then the process to even be in that number should be so airtight that there is no question that is what you have competing. In some cases you have the best, in others you have the blest, others you have a test and still others you have the rest. That is because of a screwed up (and in some cases a screwed over) process.
The current bid process favors the established powers of the cheer world. Even if they are beat "fair and sqaure" at a qualifying event, the comeptition companies have the right to hand out the bid to whomever they want. Who would not want _________ (insert name of team here) to represent them at the Cheerleading World's? World's should not be a popularity contest. No matter how great a program has been, or is loved by fans all over the country, that should have zero effect in qualifying to World's. They should earn it on the floor.***I once posted in another forum asking a question about who was the best of the rest...the teams/programs that were not either going to World's or going after World's. Absoulutley zero response from anyone. For many it is World's or nothing else matters.***
It has also been argued by some that since they (the major programs) either came up with the idea, or had a part in the planning process, why shouldn't they be granted such a pass to World's?
Secondly a bid can be bought. If your program is large enough that the amount of teams you take to a qualifying event pays enough in entry fees and crossover fees, you can in effect swap checks. This is no slam, just a simple mathematical calculation.
Another side to the above is the potential for back room deals. I wish I could honestly say that every gym and every competition company operates with the utmost integrity in this regard, but IMHO if all the true behind the scenes stories were able to be told without a gym, owner, judges, or competition company being blackballed in this industry, it would expose a lot of shadiness on the part of some.
A program can bid shop. If not satisfied with this bid, they can go somewhere else and try to upgrade the bid. The net effect of this as the process is currently constructed is to cancel out bids that other teams who may have accepted that bid from going to World's. I am thnakful that at least this year, some teams told qualifying event directors up front that they would not accept certain bids, which allowed another program to at least experience World's, should they decide to go.
The process as constructed punishes the unknown teams (or better to say unheralded teams) who do not have legions of people pushing them on the internet forums and YouTube, but just work hard and do their thing every day in the gym. The process as presently constructed causes smaller competitionsto be berated by the AOATC (arbiters of all things cheer) for being able to hand out bids (which I would think may have been a reason they joined USASF in the first place) as being unworthy bids. The process basically claims that any bids given out after the top 10-15 teams get bids are useless...that they have no chance anyway, so why even give them out. One poster on another forum likened it to all the girls at a dance being taken but the one undesirable one standing by punch bowl. And you want to dance, but the only one left to dance with is the undesirable one. So you grimace and go ask her to dance...not because she is the one you want to dance with, but because she is the only one left. (I am using their analogy but changed the language)
It is a combination of all these factors that may have caused some to feel that World's is nothing more than a Nationals as you claim. Fix the process. Make it fair for all not just a few, the favorites or the connected.
I'll answer the Nationals question in another post.
As we come closer and closer to the Cheerleading Worlds and as the final bids are being handed out over the next few weeks I would like to pose a question....
Do you feel that The Cheerleading Worlds in the very short time it has exisisted managed to become just another competition or "Nationals"?
Worlds was built on the idea of being a competition of the "best of the best" teams comming together by invitation of the larger companies to allow teams to battle for the right to say they are not only the best in the nation but the world. So what I am wondering does anyone besides me feel that Worlds really is no better than some of the TOP "National" events in the country. Minus the fact that Worlds is the only place that I have ever seen teams from other countries battle it out with some of the top teams from the US Worlds has become in MY opinion just another competition.
So with this in mind it beggs the question. Does the current bid process hurt the quality of competition at Worlds? or Do you even agree with the current bid process?
Personally I feel the way we are going with Worlds in a couple years gyms maybe be able to just sign a team up for Worlds if they can pay enough money.
Note: "the best of the best" was put into quotes because I saw two different coaches use the exact same term while being interviewed for the build up to NCA All Star Nationals.
"nationals" was put into quotes because the term was debated in a discussion over too many competitions and what does it mean to be a "national champion" if you only compete against one or two other teams.
The goal of World's is admirable. The process to get there is laughable. If you truly want the best of the best, then the process to even be in that number should be so airtight that there is no question that is what you have competing. In some cases you have the best, in others you have the blest, others you have a test and still others you have the rest. That is because of a screwed up (and in some cases a screwed over) process.
The current bid process favors the established powers of the cheer world. Even if they are beat "fair and sqaure" at a qualifying event, the comeptition companies have the right to hand out the bid to whomever they want. Who would not want _________ (insert name of team here) to represent them at the Cheerleading World's? World's should not be a popularity contest. No matter how great a program has been, or is loved by fans all over the country, that should have zero effect in qualifying to World's. They should earn it on the floor.***I once posted in another forum asking a question about who was the best of the rest...the teams/programs that were not either going to World's or going after World's. Absoulutley zero response from anyone. For many it is World's or nothing else matters.***
It has also been argued by some that since they (the major programs) either came up with the idea, or had a part in the planning process, why shouldn't they be granted such a pass to World's?
Secondly a bid can be bought. If your program is large enough that the amount of teams you take to a qualifying event pays enough in entry fees and crossover fees, you can in effect swap checks. This is no slam, just a simple mathematical calculation.
Another side to the above is the potential for back room deals. I wish I could honestly say that every gym and every competition company operates with the utmost integrity in this regard, but IMHO if all the true behind the scenes stories were able to be told without a gym, owner, judges, or competition company being blackballed in this industry, it would expose a lot of shadiness on the part of some.
A program can bid shop. If not satisfied with this bid, they can go somewhere else and try to upgrade the bid. The net effect of this as the process is currently constructed is to cancel out bids that other teams who may have accepted that bid from going to World's. I am thnakful that at least this year, some teams told qualifying event directors up front that they would not accept certain bids, which allowed another program to at least experience World's, should they decide to go.
The process as constructed punishes the unknown teams (or better to say unheralded teams) who do not have legions of people pushing them on the internet forums and YouTube, but just work hard and do their thing every day in the gym. The process as presently constructed causes smaller competitionsto be berated by the AOATC (arbiters of all things cheer) for being able to hand out bids (which I would think may have been a reason they joined USASF in the first place) as being unworthy bids. The process basically claims that any bids given out after the top 10-15 teams get bids are useless...that they have no chance anyway, so why even give them out. One poster on another forum likened it to all the girls at a dance being taken but the one undesirable one standing by punch bowl. And you want to dance, but the only one left to dance with is the undesirable one. So you grimace and go ask her to dance...not because she is the one you want to dance with, but because she is the only one left. (I am using their analogy but changed the language)
It is a combination of all these factors that may have caused some to feel that World's is nothing more than a Nationals as you claim. Fix the process. Make it fair for all not just a few, the favorites or the connected.
I'll answer the Nationals question in another post.
After reading this I thought to myself that now just coaching your kids to be strong athletes with a good sense of self is not enough. You really need to sell your program to the event director, I cant and wont do that. Does that hurt our chances of getting a bid, maybe , but I will not play the game. So if I am not willing to play the game does that mean that my kids dont deserve a bid?
Tiresome. So now the USASF is just a vast conspiracy to keep the "no name" gyms down? Absurd.
Is it easier to qualify for Worlds now than it used to be? Perhaps. Are there teams that make it to prelims there that really have no business being at that caliber of competition. Perhaps. Does this somehow mean that Worlds is now nothing more than any other competition? Absolutely not.
There is no national competition that actually attracts the very best in every division like Worlds does. NCA is closest, but many of the top teams, including at least two 07 Gold medalists, went to CheerSport instead. It is the only event where the very best teams in the world battle each other for a title. Teams from all across the world travel to this event in hopes of competing against the top in their sport. I'm not sure what else you need to be considered a World Championship.
So what if there are too many teams that "qualify"? They will get weeded out in prelims and sent on their merry way. The teams that end up winning in finals are very likely the same regardless of how many "undeserving" teams show up to get their booties handed to them.
If you have a problem with an event producer giving out bids unfairly, take that up with the event producer - don't take it out on Worlds itself.
Tiresome. So now the USASF is just a vast conspiracy to keep the "no name" gyms down? Absurd.
Is it easier to qualify for Worlds now than it used to be? Perhaps. Are there teams that make it to prelims there that really have no business being at that caliber of competition. Perhaps. Does this somehow mean that Worlds is now nothing more than any other competition? Absolutely not.
There is no national competition that actually attracts the very best in every division like Worlds does. NCA is closest, but many of the top teams, including at least two 07 Gold medalists, went to CheerSport instead. It is the only event where the very best teams in the world battle each other for a title. Teams from all across the world travel to this event in hopes of competing against the top in their sport. I'm not sure what else you need to be considered a World Championship.
So what if there are too many teams that "qualify"? They will get weeded out in prelims and sent on their merry way. The teams that end up winning in finals are very likely the same regardless of how many "undeserving" teams show up to get their booties handed to them.
If you have a problem with an event producer giving out bids unfairly, take that up with the event producer - don't take it out on Worlds itself.
No, the USASF in not a vast conspiracy to keep the "no name gym" down as you posted. World's (the competition) is not the problem, it is the process to get there that is the issue. What I did say was that the process as it is presently constructed needs to be reworked. As it is presently constructed it does favor the larger, more nationally known programs. All I did was offer some thoughts on what based on what I have seen and heard. That does not invalidate World's at all.
Funny how you can criticize the "undeserving" teams that will get weeded out in the prelims and have their "booties" handed to them, but the process can not even be discussed...which is what the original poster of the thread asked. What makes them undeserving? If World's is only meant for the top -20 teams, then give out that many bids and stop trying to make money off everyone else by giving them an "undeserving' bid. But the business side of the equation says you must do that in order to pay for the event.
If a team earns a bid to World's then they deserve the right to celebrate that accomplishmnet. If you don't think they deserve to be there, then change the process...make it how you want it to be..and roll with that. I have zero issues with it...if I don't like it, i don't have to go. But don't attack those who have earned a bid as undeserving because they may not have a chance to make it out of prelims...many teams did not even get that far.
As for event producers, we have no problem dealing with them if we feel any one of our teams were treated unfairly, whether they be a level 5 or a level 2. And since we have not even attempted to go after a World's bid this year, the rest is irrevelant to me personally.
*****After reading this I thought to myself that now just coaching your kids to be strong athletes with a good sense of self is not enough. You really need to sell your program to the event director, I cant and wont do that. Does that hurt our chances of getting a bid, maybe , but I will not play the game. So if I am not willing to play the game does that mean that my kids dont deserve a bid?****
As a coach, you keep on doing the right thing for your program. Don't let outsiders or nay sayers define the worth of your progam based on how many National Championships you won, if they were the "right" National Championships held by the "right" competition companies, how many teams you have or level teams you have, if you get a bid, what kind of bid, where you got it at, how well you did, etc. They usually have no concept of what you have gone through to get to the point you are right now.
If your kids work hard, stay within the rules, put it all on the floor and earn it at a qualifying competition I would say yes they most certainly do deserve it. Your being fan favorite or most hated should not IMHO have anything to do with it. What I don't like see happening is someone taking that away from you because of subjective reasoning that has little to do with your actual performance.
How does the process favor the "larger, more nationally known programs"? Top Gun Large Coed is going to have a better chance to get to Worlds than Suzy's Local Gym CutieCats pretty much whatever realistic process you can come up with.
Event producers likely want to give bids to the teams that they think have the most realistic chance to do well. What is unfair about that?
How does the process favor the "larger, more nationally known programs"? Top Gun Large Coed is going to have a better chance to get to Worlds than Suzy's Local Gym CutieCats pretty much whatever realistic process you can come up with.
Event producers likely want to give bids to the teams that they think have the most realistic chance to do well. What is unfair about that?
You actually proved my point. In your analogy everybody would want to give a bid to Top Gun. Hardly anyone would want to give a bid to Suzy's Local Gym Cutie Cats. But if Suzy's gym had the requisite Level 5 skill set to qualify, my opinion is that they should not be denied a bid because they are not Top Gun. (here is another issue...we can not even agree on what skills a true level 5 team should have to be competitive....for example I have 3 level 5 teams but none with a skill set close to Top Gun. So in many people's mind they shouldn't even be a level 5 team based on not being competitive with the Top Gun's of the world)
If Both Top Gun and Suzy's are at the same qualifying comp and neither has a bid and if by some circumstance Top Gun totally bombs, and Suzy's hits the their routine at that competition...Suzy should have as much of a chance going in to receive that bid for hitting their routine as Top Gun has for it's reputation. To tell Suzy..yall did great but you have no chance at all going to World's is a process flaw IMHO. Or to predetrmine who the bids are going to so the scores don't matter is another process flaw. That would be a waste of Suzy's time and parents money to go to competitions they have been projected to have no reasonable chance at winning. (this is where we get crossed up i think..the sports side of our events versus the business side of our events)
My background is gymnastics. Get a score..move up. Qualify by a score...move up. Qualify to States with this score...another score to regional, another score to National. The higher the competition, the higher the score and the more often you have to be in that range of score. Want to be in the Elite group/ Have to be consistent in your scores at different events not just your favoritie.
As a result it does not matter if I am with a major gym or a small gym no one ever heard of. (I have worked for and run both)They do not have to like me or know me. I can have legions of fans or just the ones in my gym who believe in me. If I get the scores, I qualify. Can favortism play into it? Sure. But at least there is a challenge system in place to deal with that before scores are "finalized"
To point out that Top Gun, Cheer Athletics, and others start the season with a dramaticaly higher chance to get a bid than Suzy's doesn't prove that the system is flawed. Those gyms have dramatically more talent than they typical gym. You are comparing apples to oranges. They don't have an advantage because of their name. They have an advantage because they are DRAMATICALLY better than nearly any other team.
If I were to enter a one-on-one basketball game with Michael Jordan in his prime, He would have a much better chance of winning than I do (to say the least.) We could change the rules to make my baskets count for 10 points and his Airness be required to wear a blindfold. That might make things more "even", but they would be nowhere close to "fair". He is the best basketball player of all time, so OF COURSE he is going to be more likely to win.
I believe that, generally, competitions are fair and unbiased. I believe that competitions give bids to the teams they feel are most deserving. I have seen numerous competitions where bids went to teams that "hit" vs. teams that were "the most talented." Rare is the case where the highest scoring eligible teams do not get the bids (none that I have ever been to.)
To point out that Top Gun, Cheer Athletics, and others start the season with a dramaticaly higher chance to get a bid than Suzy's doesn't prove that the system is flawed. Those gyms have dramatically more talent than they typical gym. You are comparing apples to oranges. They don't have an advantage because of their name. They have an advantage because they are DRAMATICALLY better than nearly any other team.
If I were to enter a one-on-one basketball game with Michael Jordan in his prime, He would have a much better chance of winning than I do (to say the least.) We could change the rules to make my baskets count for 10 points and his Airness be required to wear a blindfold. That might make things more "even", but they would be nowhere close to "fair". He is the best basketball player of all time, so OF COURSE he is going to be more likely to win.
I believe that, generally, competitions are fair and unbiased. I believe that competitions give bids to the teams they feel are most deserving. I have seen numerous competitions where bids went to teams that "hit" vs. teams that were "the most talented." Rare is the case where the highest scoring eligible teams do not get the bids (none that I have ever been to.)
There is no doubt that the teams you mentioned have dramticaly more talent than many gyms. That was not my point. The poster I replied to used that analogy. I just went through the process with what he/she gave. My original post said established programs. To me established can be many things...longevity, size, percieved strength, reputation, connection. That is why I did not name a program. Every state has some "established" programs who are the percieved favorites going into competitions. If you want to give lifetime acheivement awards or innovate choreggraphy awards to World's then fine..just call it what it is. Don't say a bid is "earned" if in reality it was given because of ________________________ (process flaws)
My experience is different. I have been to comeptitions where the winners were overlooked (much like the Top Gun vs Suzy analogy that was presented) in favor of the more popular teams because "they would represent us well at World's." IMHO that is not an earned bid...it was handed out for personal reasons. I know they have discretion to give it to who they want. (To me in Cheerleading "discretion" is becoming - I/we can do what we want to do with no justification or question) That is why after truly looking at how bids were handed out and talking to competition directors we stopped hotly pursuing bids because we realized even if you win a comp it don't mean you will get a bid.
Now whether we get one or not our season does not fail or succeed on the basis of of a bid only availible for one level of teams in the gym. That has dramtically reduced the stress level of all kids, parents coaches and owners.
Changing the process will have little effect on the established National teams. They will more often than not get a bid regardless. What it will do is ensure that bids are handed out in a manner that none could complain about to every one else.
That is except the AOATC who only wants to see the programs you mentioned and nobody else.
