Cross Overs

Date: Mon Feb 18 10:48 AM, 2008

Cross Overs

Date: Mon Feb 18 10:57 AM, 2008

I know at our gym we have had injuries and other circumstances that required filling in positions. We are filling them with a few from one level up. Many gyms have those with level 4/5 skills on lower level teams because they don't have enough to field a 4/5 team. I don't think you can look at the individual skills and make a judgement that it isn't fair. Now if you took an entire team or most of a team and had them perform on a lower level team in addition to their higher level team (not mentioning any gyms) then I do agree it is unfair. But a few girls here and there is a common practice and I see nothing wrong with it.

Date: Mon Feb 18 11:01 AM, 2008

You say you know a lot of gyms have crossovers and it doesn't bother you. Then why are you venting? I hate it when people make assumptions and then bring up the integrity issue when they have no idea what the circumstances are.

Date: Mon Feb 18 11:10 AM, 2008

This board is about venting so there is no problem with your post. It happens and some gyms do it more then others, and it has nothing to do with injuries. Winning is the top priority for some gyms plain and simple. What can you do about it??? They are not doing anything illegal. I do know it does not go unoticed. I always tell myself that karma will come back at them sooner or later hopefully :)

Date: Mon Feb 18 11:10 AM, 2008

One gym has had 15 girls from their level 4 team also on their level 3 team all season. I am sure they are not the only gym out there doing this.

Date: Mon Feb 18 11:20 AM, 2008

We were at a competition last year in southern california and it was clear to us that a large senior level 2 team had guys from their higher levels fill in, they didn't even participate in the dance so it was obvious they were thrown in. This is a very reputable high profile gym. Is it a common practice? Yes.

Date: Mon Feb 18 11:23 AM, 2008

Anonymous wrote:

I know that alot of gyms have cross overs and I personally don't have that much of a problem with it.

In that case this sounds personal to me.

Date: Mon Feb 18 11:23 AM, 2008

Yes I know what gym you are talking about, but the only reason why you noticed them was because they did not do the dance, so if they would of been worked into the routine are you saying that it would of been better. No one says anything about the crossovers that we have sticking out like a sore thumb because they are in every formation and they create their own stunt group.

Date: Mon Feb 18 11:25 AM, 2008

Anonymous wrote:

This board is about venting so there is no problem with your post. It happens and some gyms do it more then others, and it has nothing to do with injuries. Winning is the top priority for some gyms plain and simple. What can you do about it??? They are not doing anything illegal. I do know it does not go unoticed. I always tell myself that karma will come back at them sooner or later hopefully :)

You know for a fact it has nothing to do with injuries? Unless it is your gym you are complaining about I don't see how you would know. smile

Date: Mon Feb 18 11:26 AM, 2008

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I know that alot of gyms have cross overs and I personally don't have that much of a problem with it.

In that case this sounds personal to me.

Hmm I think your the one taking it personal. I agree it happens, but it does not make it right. I agree with the karma statement.

Date: Mon Feb 18 11:30 AM, 2008

its confusing when a person says they don't have a problem with it and then mentions it, i agree

Date: Mon Feb 18 11:31 AM, 2008

We need to remember that this sport is for the kids that participate in it. If the kids want to cheer on one or more teams, we parents say it's okay, and the gym they are with allows it, I don't see the problem. Some gyms need cross overs to have a team for everyone.

At Worlds, cross overs are not allowed. I think that should be the only venue where there should be an issue. If it is breaking the rules.

Date: Mon Feb 18 11:31 AM, 2008

Anonymous wrote:

Yes I know what gym you are talking about, but the only reason why you noticed them was because they did not do the dance, so if they would of been worked into the routine are you saying that it would of been better. No one says anything about the crossovers that we have sticking out like a sore thumb because they are in every formation and they create their own stunt group.

Yes, that is what bothered me. It was like they were thrown in last minute just for tumbling, they didn't seem to know the routine at all. But I didn't know their circumstances, maybe last minute injuries.

Date: Mon Feb 18 11:49 AM, 2008

Karma schmarma, lol The most successful gyms I know have numerous crossovers.

Date: Mon Feb 18 11:51 AM, 2008

I read the original post and I don't think the problem is about cross overs, but how they are used by some gyms. I also agree that you don't always know why or what the circumstances are so you can't always assume. Unfortunately this goes on and really as long as no rules are being broken it will continue.

Pixie · Senior Member

My whole opinion on this is: Judge not lest ye be judged.

We don't always know the circumstances at each gym. Is it about the win, injuries, or is it about team size?

I expect our coaches and owners to make up the best teams they can with the kids they have. If that means crossovers, that's fine with me.

The only problem I would have is if you have 15 kids with fulls on a small level 3 team. And I wouldn't really have much of a problem with it since I have seen kids with fulls that have trouble with backhandsprings. Like I said, we don't always know the circumstances...

Date: Mon Feb 18 12:02 PM, 2008

Bringing cheerleaders down a level to compete on a lower level team for one particular competition. Yep it goes on and it has nothing to do with teams having cross overs. It's all about winning!

Date: Mon Feb 18 12:23 PM, 2008

Do you mean after this competition is over they won't be keeping them on the team? Why wouldn't they, with Nationals coming up. I agree with the post that said you make up the best teams you can with the kids you have. Why wouldn't you?

flipkidjudge · Senior Member

Anonymous wrote:

I know cross overs have been discussed at length on this board. I would also like to add that I hate when someone gets really personal by bringing up specific gyms, so please don't. Do you think it's fair that a gym would take girls from a higher level team and have them perform on one of thier lower level teams for a national competition. I can see if there is injuries, etc. But I've witnessed this being done not once but many times. One recent comp they had two or three girls fill in on a level 2 team. One of the girls was on a level 4 team and now cheers for a level 5 team. The next competition they had a couple of other girls from the higher level team one who has a full, and the others that where throwing layouts at the previous competion fill in on the same team. All for the sake of getting higher points for thier tumbling. Is this really fair to the true level 2 teams out there? I guess I'm just venting my frustration a little because it baffles me that sometimes intregity goes out the window all for the sake of winning. I know that alot of gyms have cross overs and I personally don't have that much of a problem with it. It's just when it is done like this it bothers me.

This is a very complex subject that stirs passionate emotions regardless of how you personally see it. It seems like every cheer message board has at least two-three threads on this subject a year..usually right after a competition. The honest truth is probably anybody reading your post can identify with it one way or the other, or has a very similar story.

Personally, I do not like crossovers. That comes from my gymnastic background.I have seen kids from too many programs getting worn out from doing the crossover too much. It can affect warm ups and team morale if that person(s) is not there. Some kids can handle multiple back to back routines, others can not. This means the later performances in the day suffer. But notice this is my personal opinion only.

Professionally..it is currently a fact of cheerleading life. It can be for injuries, people have quit, people are sick, attempting to max out a division, crossover to the same skill level (Ie Mini to Youth, or Junior to Senior) or just trying to as you said beat somebody else. The reasons while ethically different, still have the same response. The vast majority of gyms will crossover some how. Small gyms do it, large gyms do it, and mega gyms with mutiple locations do it.Gyms you and I think should not have to do it, do it. Why...because the rules allow it. Until the rules are changed and says no crossovers it will be in place in some form. Even if the athlete credentialing is implemented you better believe somebody is going to try to find a way around it.

IMHO if an absolute no crossover rule is implemented it will the smaller gyms that suffer. They will not be able to field as many teams, thereby making them less competitve with surrounding gyms. In a sport that sees gym hopping every day, that could be the death knell for some gyms. You will see more mergers, more closings, or gyms fielding far less teams than they have in the past. This will effectively separate gyms/programs by those who can compete (by this I mean have an honest chance to win , place, or show...not just let's show up and fight for tenth place in our division) locally,state, regionally, and nationally. Many want to see this happen as they believe there are only 10-25 top gyms in the country and those are the only ones they want to see perform Nationally.If that happens you will see happen what happens in gymnastics..kids getting trained, getting skills, learning the sport...then leaving to go cheer for National Programs, effectively making the gym they started at a feeder gym. (Okay i will put the cynic back in now)

Let's see what happens when USASF votes on it in March.

Date: Mon Feb 18 12:27 PM, 2008

Anonymous wrote:

I read the original post and I don't think the problem is about cross overs, but how they are used by some gyms. I also agree that you don't always know why or what the circumstances are so you can't always assume. Unfortunately this goes on and really as long as no rules are being broken it will continue.

I read the original post and I don't see the problem. We are not talking about 10 or 15 girls here, it sounds like it is just a few. Why do you feel this gym is doing something different than what most other gyms do? That is the part I'm unclear about. I would have a problem if half the girls/guys on a level 2 team had level 4/5 skills.