i think team sizes should stay the same way that they are!!!

Thanks Danny. I thought I saw/heard Morton towards the end (I missed the most of the morning session).

I encourage anyone that is a member from the west coast to watch and then vote. I think a majority of these rule changes will effect the west coast gyms significantly. There are only a few "large" gyms on the west coast and we need to make sure the "small" gyms voices are heard. We have less votes and therefore need everyone to participate.

Danny, can you, Derick or Morton give us any perspective/opionions on any of these issues? Or any other coach/owner out there on the west coast.

Complete Voting Slate

1. Bring Back Pee Wee Div  
2. Change Sr ages to 12-18 
    Change Sr ages to 13-18
    Do not change Sr age in future (leave at 10)
    Eliminate the 10 yr bottom age of Senior teams
3. Combine Junior Coed w/ All Girl teams if no other teams in division
4. Eliminate the large limited co-ed division 
5. Sr Open include Level 1
6. One male on team should still bee ALL GIRL
7. Drop one age category with the following in place for 2008-09 6 and under, 9 and under, 12 and under and 12-18.
8. Not in HS not eligible to compete
9. Split Junior Coed Divisions out like Srs 
10. Split L4 Coed Teams Like L5 
11. Add on non-tumbling division at Level 4
12. Use the age cut off date of Aug. 31st 
13. Do not restrict crossovers in the industry
    Implement a standard procedure regarding crossovers to be limited to three per team regardless of athletes current USASF Credentialing level or current participating team level.
    Only allow crossovers in the same level.
14. Require Birth Certificate accompanied with photo ID for proof of age.
15. Athletes and coaches may not be under the influence of alcohol, narcotics or performance enhancing substances during any performance or competition including any prescribed or over the counter medication that would otherwise hinder their ability to perform a routine safely.
16. Allow L1 to do BHS Position
17. L1 - No single leg stunts except for knee stands
18. L2 - Add BHS series
19. Allow Level 2 to brace on 1 side until connecting on both sides at the extended position.
20. Basket tosses at level 2 be able to execute one skill in the toss with no twisting 
21. L3 - Allow standing BHS back tuck
22. L3 - Allow Front Handspring Front Tucks
23. L3 - Allow single full down from single leg stunts.
24. L3 - Allow layouts (instead of just tucks; to ease the gap to Level 4)
25. L3 - Allow tumbling out of back tucks.
26. L3 - Limit extended one legged stunts to Liberties ONLY.  
27. L3 - Limit full twist cradles from 2 legged stunts only at prep level and below. 
28. L3 - Limit twisting mounts to a ½ twist up to a 2 legged extension. 
29. L3 - Allow pyramids to be braced on both sides (hand &/or foot) during release moves instead of just arm-n-arm 
30. L3 Tosses - Level three do two body positions but no twisting 
31. L3 - Add cartwheel back tucks (stair step to standing backs) 
32. L4 - Add Fulls in tumbling. 
      L4 - Allow 3 fulls per team
      L4 - Do not allow fulls 
33. Level 4 should follow same guidelines as High School Cheerleading 
34. L5 - Allow Triple Fulls from two leg skills Position Paper Yes / No 
35. L5 - Allow Triple Fulls from tosses if no other skill is involved 
36. L5 - Allow released Rewinds  Position Paper Yes / No 
37. L5 - Allow Chorus Line flips
38. L3, L4 & L5 - Prep level bracers must have back spot

You are right, but our "sport" will never make its way until it's finally got some real rules. Young gymnasts and ice skaters have to wait to reach a certain age to go to the olympics and they to exceed older aged kids but cheerleading continues to change year after year. So the hopes of it EVER becoming a sactioned sport is impossible for reasons you are complaining of.

I think it is great that your 10 year old daughter has solid level 5 skills but why do you want her to grow up so fast?  It happens fast enough as it is.  I know we all like the idea of our kids competing at the highest level possible, but if your daughter goes to Worlds on a senior team at age 10 then what does she have to aspire or look forward to as she gets older?  This is why there are level 5 teams in the Junior division.  Sounds like she is now on one of those teams and if she stays at that gym with that team, they can mature together to become an awesome Sr 5 team and go to World's and possibly have the ability to win there.  Let it all happen in time and your daughter will be much happier and continue to have something to work for and look forward to in the years to come which will keep her interested and involved in cheer until then.  If she experiences it all now, she may be bored with it and not want to do it anymore when she is older and more able to appreciate just how special the experience should be.

My daughter was on a Sr team when she was 10 (she is going to be 16 this mo) and I did not like it.  Specifically because of what she was being exposed to during breaks and hanging out at competitions (if they would even let her, which was a whole other issue).  These girls were up to 18 yrs old and talking about all of the things that have been mentioned and I ended up changing gyms after that to a larger gym that had Jr teams at my daughters ability level.  It doesn't matter how mature your daughter is or isn't at 10, they are still 10 and don't need to grow up that quickly for any reason IMO.  I hope they keep the rule to only have 12 - 18 on Sr teams.  Personally I think it should be 14 and up on Sr and under 14 on Jr and under 10 on youth etc but I know that probably will never happen.

Anonymous wrote:

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I think it is great that your 10 year old daughter has solid level 5 skills but why do you want her to grow up so fast?  It happens fast enough as it is.  I know we all like the idea of our kids competing at the highest level possible, but if your daughter goes to Worlds on a senior team at age 10 then what does she have to aspire or look forward to as she gets older?  This is why there are level 5 teams in the Junior division.  Sounds like she is now on one of those teams and if she stays at that gym with that team, they can mature together to become an awesome Sr 5 team and go to World's and possibly have the ability to win there.  Let it all happen in time and your daughter will be much happier and continue to have something to work for and look forward to in the years to come which will keep her interested and involved in cheer until then.  If she experiences it all now, she may be bored with it and not want to do it anymore when she is older and more able to appreciate just how special the experience should be.

My daughter was on a Sr team when she was 10 (she is going to be 16 this mo) and I did not like it.  Specifically because of what she was being exposed to during breaks and hanging out at competitions (if they would even let her, which was a whole other issue).  These girls were up to 18 yrs old and talking about all of the things that have been mentioned and I ended up changing gyms after that to a larger gym that had Jr teams at my daughters ability level.  It doesn't matter how mature your daughter is or isn't at 10, they are still 10 and don't need to grow up that quickly for any reason IMO.  I hope they keep the rule to only have 12 - 18 on Sr teams.  Personally I think it should be 14 and up on Sr and under 14 on Jr and under 10 on youth etc but I know that probably will never happen.

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Yes but bored and stalling was what she was doing at the other gym, that's why we made the change and yes we do love our JR 5 team, it is great and there are older girls on that squad too but now she is at a level to utilize her skills. Because I am all about a parent regulating and controlling their kids friends I do not worry about her hanging with the older kids because I don't allow that anyway, but now there are plenty of kids for her to hang with that are her age on the team as well and even better with equal talent

Anonymous wrote:

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Complete Voting Slate

1. Bring Back Pee Wee Div  
2. Change Sr ages to 12-18 
    Change Sr ages to 13-18
    Do not change Sr age in future (leave at 10)
    Eliminate the 10 yr bottom age of Senior teams
3. Combine Junior Coed w/ All Girl teams if no other teams in division
4. Eliminate the large limited co-ed division 
5. Sr Open include Level 1
6. One male on team should still bee ALL GIRL
7. Drop one age category with the following in place for 2008-09 6 and under, 9 and under, 12 and under and 12-18.
8. Not in HS not eligible to compete
9. Split Junior Coed Divisions out like Srs 
10. Split L4 Coed Teams Like L5 
11. Add on non-tumbling division at Level 4
12. Use the age cut off date of Aug. 31st 
13. Do not restrict crossovers in the industry
    Implement a standard procedure regarding crossovers to be limited to three per team regardless of athletes current USASF Credentialing level or current participating team level.
    Only allow crossovers in the same level.
14. Require Birth Certificate accompanied with photo ID for proof of age.
15. Athletes and coaches may not be under the influence of alcohol, narcotics or performance enhancing substances during any performance or competition including any prescribed or over the counter medication that would otherwise hinder their ability to perform a routine safely.
16. Allow L1 to do BHS Position
17. L1 - No single leg stunts except for knee stands
18. L2 - Add BHS series
19. Allow Level 2 to brace on 1 side until connecting on both sides at the extended position.
20. Basket tosses at level 2 be able to execute one skill in the toss with no twisting 
21. L3 - Allow standing BHS back tuck
22. L3 - Allow Front Handspring Front Tucks
23. L3 - Allow single full down from single leg stunts.
24. L3 - Allow layouts (instead of just tucks; to ease the gap to Level 4)
25. L3 - Allow tumbling out of back tucks.
26. L3 - Limit extended one legged stunts to Liberties ONLY.  
27. L3 - Limit full twist cradles from 2 legged stunts only at prep level and below. 
28. L3 - Limit twisting mounts to a ½ twist up to a 2 legged extension. 
29. L3 - Allow pyramids to be braced on both sides (hand &/or foot) during release moves instead of just arm-n-arm 
30. L3 Tosses - Level three do two body positions but no twisting 
31. L3 - Add cartwheel back tucks (stair step to standing backs) 
32. L4 - Add Fulls in tumbling. 
      L4 - Allow 3 fulls per team
      L4 - Do not allow fulls 
33. Level 4 should follow same guidelines as High School Cheerleading 
34. L5 - Allow Triple Fulls from two leg skills Position Paper Yes / No 
35. L5 - Allow Triple Fulls from tosses if no other skill is involved 
36. L5 - Allow released Rewinds  Position Paper Yes / No 
37. L5 - Allow Chorus Line flips
38. L3, L4 & L5 - Prep level bracers must have back spot

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Okay figured I'd repost this to bring it back on subject, the monitors must all be on vacation. Anyone else have a complaint about these new rules , that we can fight about

32. L4 - Add Fulls in tumbling.
L4 - Allow 3 fulls per team
L4 - Do not allow fulls

I admit I am conflicted on this one. What is this proposal truly addressing? Having been at a smaller gym and having heard coaches from smaller gyms talk I am of the opinion that it has more to do with retaining talent in smaller gyms than progressions. How will they ever be able to compete if every time they teach a girl/guy and advanced skill they leave because their is no team for them to throw that skill where they are? Many of the smaller gyms once they get a couple of kids that can twist, they lose them to the larger programs around the corner. One coach related how she didn't even want to teach anything past a layout because she had no teams the kids could use them on anyway. She may be in the vast minority, but I think many other share similar stories. They don't want to become a feeder program for other gyms.

The second issue is teams that do not have much more advanced tumbling than a full getting waxed competed at Level 5. Competing 3 fulls against double fulls and specialty passes? One gym i worked at had one girl who had a perfect full. She could probably do a double very easy. But she couldn't compete it unless she changed gyms (which from reading other boards is exactly what some would like to see happen). There was not enough girls to even build a strong level 4 team. So here she is with an awesome tumbling skill set competing Level 3 because that is where they majority of the best girls in that gym are skill wise. Much is said about all the other passes they could do (I agree) at level 4 but honestly I have not seen much of those suggestions from any Level 4 team. I have yet to see a Front ROBHSwhipwhip thru to Layout at a competition and have seen some very good level 4 teams.

I do not think that allowing fulls across the board is the answer. But I understand the frustration of having no place to throw your full unless you change gyms. I could see 3 fulls, but it will not make a difference in winning or losing. What it may make a difference in is retaining and growth for smaller gyms. How about this proposed rule? (Just musing out loud)

At Level 4 there must be no less than 3 specialty tumbling passes that connect to a layout.

This would (through the rules) ensure that the progressions are not only being taught, they are being performed...instead of suggesting it.

Worlds Watcher wrote:

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2.
a.Change Sr ages to 12-18
b.Change Sr ages to 13-18
c.Do not change Sr age in future (leave at 10)
d.Eliminate the 10 yr bottom age of Senior teams

I think there are some good discussions that can happen around the topic of age limitation for Senior teams. Let's see if we can discuss this point without being rude to posters.

Here is what I've gathered from previous posts, pros and cons:
1. Doesn't allow younger kids that have level 5 skills to stay at current gym if gym doesn't have youth/junior 5 teams. This can limit the growth of the gym and the athlete.

2. Teams should be age appropriate to limit exposure of younger kids to "adult" conversations and activities.

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Thank you for that, I believe that was exactly what is being said. But I am clueless as to why because of age you would not want that kid on the floor. Judges don't care how old the kid is when they mark how many full or doubles they seen in the routine, etc. Do you think the Lakers didnt want Kobe because he was 18, they want the talent, and he was in his prime? Maybe thats the real issue here is that the age of prime is lowering in this sport.

These kids don't run across the floor with their age on their back so I really don't understand the issue. Besides that the gym should control the inappropriate conversations, and from the sounds of it maybe the things the older kids are discussing the gym is not the appropriate place.