Another New Debate Topic

Date: Thu Nov 11 7:31 PM, 2004

Another New Debate Topic

Date: Thu Nov 11 8:13 PM, 2004

Nelson, you make complete sense. If I were a coach and there were two girls to choose from, one that was flexible and had a gorgeous scorpian, while the other was a powerful tumbler, I'd choose the powerful tumbler. Lets use "AMAC" as an example. She is a powerful tumbler that used to not have any flexibilty whats so ever before she started cheering. After she learned how to fly and stretched out more everyday, she became a solid flyer. She incorportated her strength and body control she developed from tumbling into her flying which made it easier for her to learn to be a flyer so quickly. If it were there other way around, the flyer would probably take a lot more time to learn to be a powerful tumbler, than the tumbler to learn to fly. Even so, that flyer could possibly never become a powerful tumbler, since not everyone has the capabilities to be a powerful tumbler or else all cheer teams would have full squad round off-ff-fulls, thus making the tumbler a better choice.

Date: Thu Nov 11 9:09 PM, 2004

I think its because flying is the more "glamourous" side of cheer, and as much as some people might hate to admit it, cheerleading has just RECENTLY become athletic, as opposed to looking cute in a skirt and saying "RAH RAH RAH!" And I think some Mothers, and cheerleaders like to say "Oh yeah, thats me or thats my daughter in the air." No one wants to say, "Oh yeah, thats me holding that 75 pounds of person up over my head." Why not? Basing is so mush harder than flying! If your a base, or have based, how many times have you taken an elbow to the face? Or saved a LIFE? (Cookie, Klu, I love you!)

One of the best cheerleaders I've ever met, Stefani (Cookie) Cook, is a base, and one of the strongest female athletes, I might add. And you can bet shes gettin into college. You'll see her at AB this weekend, shes the one with the fulls that are 12 feet in the air.

Now, on the other side of it, I am a flyer, who doesn't get to fly on the team I'm on this year. Would I like to fly? Of course, but its not because I want to be the center of attention, or because my MOM wants me to. Its because I feel I am a strong flyer, and I could be an asset to the team in that area.

But, if your on a team, you need to trust your coach. You need to trust them that they have the best interest for the TEAM in mind, not for the one individual who needs to fly to go to school. If thats the case, put a stunt group together, or compete an individual, and if your not "good enough" for that, then maybe theres a reason your not front and center your teams stunt section, because cheerleading is a team sport, not an individual one.

Date: Thu Nov 11 10:03 PM, 2004

I'd tell them to Click Here and then click Open.

Date: Fri Nov 12 8:52 AM, 2004

My daughter is on a team and she is a GREAT Base. In fact, I just ordered her a T-Shirt that says "A stunt not lifted by me, I don't think so. Bases RULE". Maybe there is to much attention to the flyers and that is why kids/moms want their kids to fly, for the attention. I like my daughter nice and safe on the ground, and she is proud to be a base. Her coaches do a great job of making each position (base, flyer, spotter) feel important and necessary.

Date: Fri Nov 12 7:22 PM, 2004

Being a flyer in a sense is more glamourous, as AMac said, than maybe a base. But it is very frusterating when you used to be a flyer and now looking at other girls are being put up over you. I am now a senior and goin to college soon- and now i am not flying as a senior. I want to continue cheering in college- but now i am not to sure if i will b/c off the experience i may not have now. I am an ex gymnast and maybe i can fall back on my tumbling skills. Even though i am not flying this year- i do believe i am a stonge flyer- but still trust and love my coaches.

Date: Fri Nov 12 11:09 PM, 2004

Not flying as a Senior is High School- or any year in high school for that matter, does not always mean you are not a good flyer or not going to fly in the future. I did not start flying until I was out of high school. Why? No clue! But as it turns out I was able to learn to fly after high school and be just as good, if not better, than people who did fly in high school. College Coaches can teach you what they want you to do- don't think past experience is going to make all that much of a difference.

If you love to cheer, then that should be enough. Let everything else fall into place.

Date: Sat Nov 13 7:43 AM, 2004

To: a cheergyms coach,

What you are saying is very true, but i can understand how frustrating it can be to watch other flyers fly, especially when stunts are falling. Nelson did it to me for 2 years in a row. He'd put other girls up for the first half of the year, realize in November or December that it wasn't working, and decide to have me fly, even though I was bigger and less flexible then the other girls. And it is tough going from not flying for 6 months or more, to being expected to be as ready as girls who have been working all summer. But I guess its kinda like riding a bike, you never REALLY forget.

And I also guess Nelly had good reasons to switch me in, in 3 years of being in the air, I have never dropped at a competition, which goes to prove that its not always just about size and flexibility.

Date: Sat Nov 13 1:41 PM, 2004

For all of you who think flying at the High School/All Star level will help you fly at the college level...think about it this way. Unless your current team is doing 2 high pyramids and head over heels basket tosses, then your flying skills in the HS/AS level probably mean diddly squat to a college coach.

Take for example, we can all agree that Sacramento State is probably one of the top college cheer squads in the Nation. Kassie Cook flew in just a pyramid here at Motions, yet she was accepted to Sac State. Why? Because Kassie is an incredible tumbler. Now, she flys there all the time. Why? Because of her background training in tumbling.

Can anyone honestly tell me of a college or a college coach that believes that it is important for a incoming freshman to have experience flying?

Date: Sat Nov 13 10:38 PM, 2004

When I cheered in college over 10 years ago there were basic stunt requirements, so for you to say that college coaches don't look for flying experience seems somewhat off the wall for me to believe. Any college worth anything has basic requirements, stunt as well as tumbling. I think that it all matters in where you want to cheer. Of course if you say an All Girl squad then I would take your side and say that you do not need to be a flyer in AS/HS because everyone is still needed ( backspot, side, flyer) . If I were coaching college allgirl of course I would take the girl with the flip flop double over a flyer that can double out of scorps....as now a days those flyers are a dime a dozen at college tryouts. Now a days at college tryouts you need to be a triple threat(tumble, base, fly) as you not only need the girls at the top of 2 1/2 high pyramids, you also need the second tier girls that hold them. You also have to look at the make up of the team. Do they compete and if so with what organization. If its NCA take the tumbler because as you know teams like U of L have full squad fulls and prob doubles and combo passes. If you are talking UCA, name one UCA type team that you see everyone through synchronized flip flop fulls? The only teams that come close are Kentucky and UCF. I can name a handfull of female college cheerleaders that do not have flip flop fulls but have mad stunt skills. I am not saying that gymnasts don't have the tendancy to learn faster. My whole advanced team has a gym background. Ex-gymnast have great body awareness I will give you that but don't close the door on true cheerleaders because they do not have a full or better at a tryout. I saw Cassie perform with Sac and she is amazing and she is someone who has crossed over from gym to cheer with ease along with many of her male and female teammates, yet many of her teammates don't have a gym background and they are still capable of being the strongest college team on the West Coast . Food For thought!

Date: Mon Nov 15 10:47 AM, 2004

Sure, flyers who don't tumble can still be very talented cheerleaders. But, as a flyer, at the college level, how are you gonna learn double full baskest if you've never even done a full on the ground, even with spot?

Not to mention, if you got a kid with a good clean full and half way decent flexibility, chances are you can teach them a scorp double in just a couple of months. Wouldn't that be a more worthwhile time investment than a kid coming in with a scorp double and a janky back handspring?

Date: Mon Nov 15 1:42 PM, 2004

But that is my point.....at the college level you should not even be considered unless you are an all around cheerleader. You should not even consider trying out for college with a jacked up backhandspring. Now I agree with what you are saying about Double full baskets.....true statement at the same time not every girl on a college coed team is going to throw double full baskets......normally one or two girls specialize in baskets. Oh and sorry for my earlier typo.......its Kassie not Cassie......right?

Date: Mon Nov 15 3:10 PM, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: AMac
"Sure, flyers who don't tumble can still be very talented cheerleaders. But, as a flyer, at the college level, how are you gonna learn double full baskest if you've never even done a full on the ground, even with spot?

Not to mention, if you got a kid with a good clean full and half way decent flexibility, chances are you can teach them a scorp double in just a couple of months. Wouldn't that be a more worthwhile time investment than a kid coming in with a scorp double and a janky back handspring?"

although this is very true for some, it is not true for all. The prettiest double down at our gym comes from a girl who does have a r/o bhs full, as does the second prettiest (in my opinion) But another flyer who is not a tumbler at all, also has a gorgeous and FAST double down, and this is her first year flying. She got this skill by working extremely hard, and honestly putting in a lot of effort. Although tumbling can make things easier for a flyer, its also in their work ethic and drive for learning to fly/get new flying skills.

Date: Tue Nov 16 3:38 PM, 2004

Who said that a cheerleader cannot get tumbling in a "quick amount of time"

I have been cheerleading for 5 years now. I have only been on my cheergyms.com team for 1 and a half years. In the 1 and half years i have been here i have gotten all the skills up to a round-off backhandspring tuck and im close to my layout. So for someone to improve on tumbling and be a good flyer who can do scorp. double downs..that is a really statement that they should belong to the team and they could be a real asset to the team members.

xOxO,
Cheergyms.com Cheerleader

Date: Tue Nov 16 3:39 PM, 2004

by the way: i do not have scorp. double downs.

but if you are a flyer, and do have that, but does not have x amount of tumbling that the coaches are looking for..there is always time to work on it!

Date: Tue Nov 16 7:23 PM, 2004

to Cheergyms Cheerleader:

You are an exception to the rule! For most cheerleaders it can take YEARS to learn new skills. The fact that you have improved from what sounds like no tumbling to layouts in a year means two things, one, you have worked very hard and dedicated yourself to learn that tumbling, and two your coach (or coaches) have really dedicated themselves to teaching you those skills and obviously know what they are doing. So, props to you for being what some would call a "natural", but remember that most people will not learn tumbling that quickly-hence the gymnasts who become flyers at a faster rate.

Maritza

Date: Tue Nov 16 8:06 PM, 2004

Okay, so this topic went off on a side street, let me steer it away from college cheerleading and back on the right track.

What do you guys think of cheerleaders who complain to their coach or threaten to quit their team (or do quit) because they aren't flying?

Nelson

Date: Wed Nov 17 7:46 AM, 2004

I think girls who complain are really bringing down the team. The coaches know where people need to go, and if its not working they will put someone else in. Girls don't need to complain, because every single part in the routine is important. Your there to have fun work hard and win! Not to be up in the air all the time. If your not a flyer, you can work on other things to make the team stronger. We all need to realize its not ALL about the flyers. Flyers are very talented, but the rest of the team is just as important!!! Trust your coach, they are there to put people where they are supposed to go.

Date: Wed Nov 17 8:09 AM, 2004

Usually it is the parents that are feeding into the "if my daughter doesn't fly then we'll go somewhere else" attitude. My daughter has been cheering 4 years. The first year she was a flyer, year 2&3 they had her concentrate on tumbling, and her fourth year she is a flyer again. And guess what, she is a better flyer now that she has developed better tumbling skills. I have to say as a parent it is critical to trust the coaches and their decisions. And it is important to teach your child that every position on the team is critical and they should be proud to be on an all star cheer team, no matter what they do in the routine. I have high regard for the bases who are putting my child up in the air. Remember, it is a stunt "group", not just a "flyer". So, to those that threaten to leave because they aren't flying...I say let them go. A team doesn't need prima donnas, they need TEAM MATES!

Date: Wed Nov 17 8:32 AM, 2004

As a parent and a High School coach, I agree wholeheartedly with the previous post, that the parents can model the proper attitude for team building. At our HS practices, early in the season, we put EVERYBODY up in the air to give them an idea of what its like up there; likewise, potential flyers try basing. It's helpful for each member of the team to have an appreciation first hand of what their teammates are doing to make the stunt work. Sometimes we also discover hidden talent!!!

With regard to cheerleaders who think they need to fly to get on a college team, (which seems to be the most frequent excuse for these girls), I say - stunting is about timing and working in sinc w/ your group... if you are flexible enough to fly and you've had experiencing basing, in my experience, those girls pick it up a lot faster, too. (along with gymnasts) Cheerleaders on these Cheergyms.com teams should all be PROUD to be a member of the team and do their best where their coach decides they are needed most. That's how championships are won.