judges sending a message

cheer mom ltd · Veteran Member

judges sending a message

Fierce Coach · GURU

I would say no. If the skill is there, then the skill is there. There are pleny of seventeen year old girls that can fly and hit everytime and then there are plenty that won't hit. AS THERE ARE PLENTY OF 8 YEAR OLDS WHO CAN HIT AND SOME THAT CANT. I don't think judging on age would make much sense in this case.

But judging is subjective, so I guess, who really knows?

Tamara · cheergyms.com Master Poster

I would say that it definitely could; however, I would hope that if it was the case then those judges would put it in their comments, otherwise the team wouldn't know what was "wrong".

ACM · Veteran Member

I wouldn't think judges are necessarily trying to 'send a message'. However, they might think that the difficulty level is lower since little tiny flyers would definately be easier to stunt with vs. larger fliers. So if 2 teams were very similar in difficulty, the team with the little tiny fliers might score lower.

This is just my opinion

, and I'm not a judge...I'm just (ACM) Another Cheer Mom.

cheer mom ltd · Veteran Member

on another board someone who judges said he would definately give a lower score and knows numerous judging panels who also would! uh-oh

Danny · Senior Member

Most younger flyers (6-11 yrs old) are still developing the muscle needed to hold their tight body positions and keep a straight body on double downs. I think most judges pentalize that more than the simple fact that they're young.

Any judge that docks a team for something that isn't inherently wrong needs to be removed from all future panels. I think we can agree on that.

Cali Cheers · Member

OK, if there are judges doing this I think it is completely messed up! If a team is staying within the perimeters of the rules then they should not be deducted for having small flyers. If the USASF does not want little kid flyers then they need to change the rules. Also I have a 14 year old daughter who looks like an 8 year old so does this mean her team would be deducted for having a little flyer even though she is of senior age??? How would the judges know if the flyers are young or just late bloomers? Colleges all seem to have little flyers (girls that are typically under 100 pounds).

Tamara · cheergyms.com Master Poster

While I don't agree with it, isn't there a section on the scoresheet for "overall impression" or some such beast? As we know judging is subjective and if using young flyers gives a judge a lower overall impression, how is that wrong?

Yes, it may be easier to throw a little girl; however, it's not always easier to base that little girl - or so my daughter tells me. Younger usually means less experience, so then there's the issue of not having learned how to stay tight. Don't beat me up yet, I said usually, there are plenty of younger fliers that do wonderfully.

-- Edited by Tamara at 10:44, 2007-02-23

cheer mom ltd · Veteran Member

LOL Tamara, you are funny. I'm not gonna beat you up, I agree with you! My daughter complains about certain young "loose" flyers as well. The impression I am getting is that this issue is indeed a concern and may very well result in a lower score at worlds. Not just because of age, but because of a lack of what age and experience brings, as in grace and form. We will just have to wait and see what happens with the rules next year! I hope this situation doesn't end up being what pushes things over the edge and forces a ruling on bottom ages, but I can see how it might.

Tamara · cheergyms.com Master Poster

Unfortunately, I think it may become a rule in the very near future. I think it will only hurt small gyms.

Pink Lady · Veteran Member

Ok I REALLY, REALLY tried to just sit back and read this one because I knew I would be bias, BUT....... I just so happen to be the proud parent of an 8 year old senior team flyer (That should really give me away), so i am going to put in my

. I don't think it's fair for judges to penalize a team because of small flyers. If they have the skill and hit the stunts, then what does age and size have to do with it? I hope flyers are not chosen because of size alone. Although, i'm not naive and I know it has alot to do with it, but all small young cheerleaders just can not fly. They don't have the skill and ability to. So if you find one that can, why not let them. What's wrong with that? If this became an issue what would happen to all the young talented girls. Do the judges penalize Cheer Force for having Kiara Nowlin as a Flyer. I hope not because that little girl is BOMB! No matter how old she is. IMO, The judging should be based on skill, difficulty, presentation and what ever else they look for, not age or size. Like I said, my daughter is 8 and has more skill, agility and personality then alot of girls older than her. If this is the case with the judges, then the little ones may just have to "Bring It" harder than some of the older ones, but it can be done.

Hey, this is not fair starting this topic before tryouts. We are trying to swoop up a level! Don't listen to them Fierce Coaches. Little Flyers are the best!

Well, maybe not a whole team of them, but at least 1 or 2 HA HA LOL

COmomof2 · Senior Member

Wow.. this is a touchy subject.. but very good for debate.

****disclaimer first! These are my opinions .. and only mine... please don't bash me.***

I never was a big fan of the use of little tiny girls on Junior or Senior teams. Sure the stunts might seem difficult and sure the flyers can do it.. But I still believe that the level of difficulty is not there - Some of you might argue this, but there is a big difference between a 60lb child and a 100 + lb girl.

Like Tamara Said -
Yes, it may be easier to throw a little girl; however, it's not always easier to base that little girl - or so my daughter tells me. Younger usually means less experience, so then there's the issue of not having learned how to stay tight. Don't beat me up yet, I said usually, there are plenty of younger fliers that do wonderfully.

-- Edited by Tamara at 10:44, 2007-02-23

But then again.. Even though they aren't tight she's usually small enough that her back spot can hold her leg or bottom to keep her up, etc. Where on a true Junior or Senior girl would only be able to hold maybe the bottom of her calf.

Oh well.. What can you say.

Tamara · cheergyms.com Master Poster

COmomof2 wrote:

Wow.. this is a touchy subject.. but very good for debate.

****disclaimer first! These are my opinions .. and only mine... please don't bash me.***

I never was a big fan of the use of little tiny girls on Junior or Senior teams. Sure the stunts might seem difficult and sure the flyers can do it.. But I still believe that the level of difficulty is not there - Some of you might argue this, but there is a big difference between a 60lb child and a 100 + lb girl.

Like Tamara Said -
Yes, it may be easier to throw a little girl; however, it's not always easier to base that little girl - or so my daughter tells me. Younger usually means less experience, so then there's the issue of not having learned how to stay tight. Don't beat me up yet, I said usually, there are plenty of younger fliers that do wonderfully.

-- Edited by Tamara at 10:44, 2007-02-23

But then again.. Even though they aren't tight she's usually small enough that her back spot can hold her leg or bottom to keep her up, etc. Where on a true Junior or Senior girl would only be able to hold maybe the bottom of her calf.

Oh well.. What can you say.

I personally don't think it looks as good and I hope a gym owner does not take advantage of using the younger flyers. However, I understand that some gyms, especially smaller ones, may need to use the young'ns. And this is why I don't think there should be a rule against it.

The butt brace is an entirely different subject! I do NOT think that a flyer over youth should be held by anything other than their foot/ankle. I don't like it, I don't like it, I don't like it.

cheerwatcher · GURU

Tamara wrote:

COmomof2 wrote:

Wow.. this is a touchy subject.. but very good for debate.

****disclaimer first! These are my opinions .. and only mine... please don't bash me.***

I never was a big fan of the use of little tiny girls on Junior or Senior teams. Sure the stunts might seem difficult and sure the flyers can do it.. But I still believe that the level of difficulty is not there - Some of you might argue this, but there is a big difference between a 60lb child and a 100 + lb girl.

Like Tamara Said -
Yes, it may be easier to throw a little girl; however, it's not always easier to base that little girl - or so my daughter tells me. Younger usually means less experience, so then there's the issue of not having learned how to stay tight. Don't beat me up yet, I said usually, there are plenty of younger fliers that do wonderfully.

-- Edited by Tamara at 10:44, 2007-02-23

But then again.. Even though they aren't tight she's usually small enough that her back spot can hold her leg or bottom to keep her up, etc. Where on a true Junior or Senior girl would only be able to hold maybe the bottom of her calf.

Oh well.. What can you say.
I personally don't think it looks as good and I hope a gym owner does not take advantage of using the younger flyers. However, I understand that some gyms, especially smaller ones, may need to use the young'ns. And this is why I don't think there should be a rule against it.

The butt brace is an entirely different subject! I do NOT think that a flyer over youth should be held by anything other than their foot/ankle. I don't like it, I don't like it, I don't like it.

I completly agree. I really dislike when teams use smaller flyers. I dont mean just 1 or maybe 2, but when all of their flyers are teeny-tiny and clearly belong on a younger team. Lets say "Amber" is an 8 year old, natrually talented girl. "Felicia" is a 9 year old who has BHS tuck, and shes working on her layout. They both weigh around 70 pounds and are on a senior 3 team. Meanwhile in the program, the Large senior 4 team has seven 9,10,11 and 12 year olds all but 1 that tumbles roundoff bach handsprings, some have tucks and layouts as well. The rest of their team are beefy 17 and 18 year olds. Now looking at that scenerio I think it would be more impressive to take all the "little flyers" and put them in a youth or junior category. They would be competing agaist people of their own age! They could be a really strong 3/4 team. IMO, I like seeing mature senior girls in the air. I think it looks better. In a sense (and I know people will get upset WITH ME) I think its sort of a copout when you clearly have all tiny flyers, that could be utlized in their proper age division. Just like Pinklady, I dont think 1 (maybe 2) "littler" flyer(s) is too harmful.

However, I dont think its fair to penalize because like other have stated, smaller gyms often have no choice. With not a large pool of girls to choose from, they have no other option.

dad07 · Newbie

using the above arguements could you score more points if you use flyer size girls to put up base size girls? I mean how about a team that only puts up 150 lb kids? that should impress the judges!

Tamara · cheergyms.com Master Poster

Now that would be a sight to see!

cheerwatcher · GURU

hahaha Even I would enjoy that!

Fierce Coach · GURU

ouch my arms, just thinking about it.

Caspiritlala · Veteran Member

As a base I'd personally rather base the 150lb girl who was locked out & stayed tight than the little flyer who falls on my head 100 times because her little legs decided to give out. Yes there are plenty of little fliers who know what they are doing but in my opinion (just my opinion) little fliers know they are little and have no problem falling on your head because they know they will be caught every time. Larger fliers tend to knock everyone out on the way down so they try harder to stay up. Of course this is not always the case and I will say it again there are plenty of amazing little fliers out there! This is just from my basing experiences.

Diva Coach Melissa · Senior Member

I have mixed feelings on this topic. On one hand, I agree that senior-level athletes should be senior aged. I personally support the 12+ age rule for seniors, and I would support it up to age 14.

However, I do NOT support the judges that are "sending a message" to teams with young flyers by lowering scores. The rules are what they are, and that's what we should be using as judges to award our scores. I don't feel at all comfortable lowering the score of a team for something that the rules allow.